So wonderfully told and charged with insight as to the diaspora of the unwanted, persecuted, and abandoned. I tell everyone that George W Bush forced my exile to Sweden, that guns, and arrogance, hubris and racial hatred became too great for me to bear, as the hypocrisy America has become in the eyes of the world. Would I return? Yes, only to be shot by patriots. I would export Swedish values everywhere.
On not getting out in time. A Thread/ Bird App. 31 Aug. 2021
@AuntyNationalAH
Here's a family story: By the mid-1930's my Chicago-based Grandfather was pleading with his German *gentile*, bourgeois cousins to come to the US for safety. My Grandfather himself was active in Anti-Nazi resistance in the German-American community 1/n
...So much so that my Mother and Aunt had a security detail going to and from school. In Germany, for their part, the cousins were elderly liberal academics who did what they could to shield Jewish friends and colleagues from Nazi purges in higher ed. 2/n
Aug 31
They were brave. They Absolutely made the right moral choices and they figured "we're not Jewish ourselves, so we'll be OK." They stayed put. They were soon arrested by the nazis, who didn't take the Herr Professor and his wife to the Camps... 3/n
Aug 31
Instead the elderly, urban couple were exiled to their cold-water summer cabin deep in the Black Forest. In 1945, my Grandfather was able to locate this cabin and his cousins. The professor had died of starvation and exposure weighing c97 lbs; 4/n
·
Aug 31
His wife survived him for a few weeks and then succumbed. Their daughter, Herta was a zealous nazi & she had informed on her parents to the gestapo for being enemies of the Reich. 5/n
Aug 31
Having grown up, from a young age on this family lore, I am a committed #Resister--and I always have an eye on the nearest exit. /finish
I had the same dilemma when the current governor in my state was elected (I live in Alaska). After the governor's administration embarked on a program of hacking both the state government and the university to pieces, I debated over whether to just call it quits and move to another state or not. Ultimately, I decided that I would not be run out of the state I was born in and love so much. I became more politically active. I wrote letters, I gave testimony, I went to rallies, I signed petitions. And a strange thing happened. People from across the political spectrum came together and fought back against the cuts and against the governor's right-wing agenda. We weren't successful in forcing a recall election (Covid stayed our hand), but we were able to halt most of the destruction. I learned two things from this experience: 1) the University and the state programs were more popular than I had given them credit for and 2) the people who wanted them hollowed out were a minority--a vocal minority, to be sure, but a minority all the same. Bottom line: We are the majority and we should always stand to fight because our state, our lives, and our democracy are worth fighting for.
Thank you sooo much for this Robyn. It is heartening to hear your story,sctions and results. I will double down on my search efforts for the local majority. Sharing your experience is helpful, Thanks!
Thank you Ruth for posing the question and everyone for honest thoughts. I went to bed last night thinking of this and now up thinking the same. I look around and see all parts of this issue displayed. My wife and I suppose we'll stay but make leaving preparations. Tiawan, my wife's birth place as a potential option.
Before 2015 I was a fringe political person. But with Trump and the rise of authorianism recognition that the reality of our mass shared psychosis is here and treatment resistant. I fear what treatment can be effictive? I'll continue to seek opportunities for change. I believe it will take all of us working together for change. So here's to the work and the faith.
Gary, I'm half Taiwanese and was also thinking of Taiwan (my mother has a Taiwanese passport). But don't you think invasion by China is basically guaranteed in the next five years or so? That is one thing that has given me great pause.
Good morning Jason, please accept my apology for this late reply. Our house hold is of two minds regarding Taiwan and China. I am fearful of a mainland invasion. I am a firm anti-authoritarian believer as is my wife except when it comes to China. Rose is certain that China will find a way to unify ONE China. She sees this as inevitable and good. "Too much freedom leads to chaos!" in China. Her adult Twainese daughter agrees. They are Blue party. Her brother is Green party and supports an independent Taiwan. Other siblings are very quiet on this topic. So we agree to disagree on China. As you might imagine it is complicated. As for exhile, the plague is a game breaker. Her family all agree, even vacinated, the plague is an important consideration.
So we'll likely live out this petre dish social experimant in as safe a way as we can. Contributing where we are able to sanity while being alert to AAPI hate and any around the block fundamentalist activity.
This forum seems not for casual chat however I am interisted in how your mother thinks and feels about all this. Please feel free to communicate. Thanks Jason.
My wife is a refugee from Azerbaijan. After the Soviet state weakened, an Azeri authoritarian regime emerged that stoked ethnic hatred against Armenians, of whom my wife was a member. Fleeing in the dark of night, her family escaped to Armenia, Ukraine, Russia, ultimately many to the U.S. They were the lucky ones with means and insight. They still landed in the U.S. with little but the clothes on their backs and pennies in their pockets.
As we elected Trump and moved forward through his presidency, she and some of her emigre friends expressed grave concerns over the deja vu they were experiencing. "Even here," they sighed, "even here."
We must not let this happen, let us slip into tribal enmities, petty fears, racial definitions of "us" and "them," stoked by cynical power-seekers manipulating our information space. Therein lies true Hell on earth.
We must make our voices heard above the din of culture war battles, that we are all Americans striving to create a more just world for everyone, all cultures, all creeds, all tongues, all faiths, all skin-tones, all genders, all - to truly create that shining City on the hill that is the envy of the world, not because it is the best that can be, but because it continues to, through democracy, introspect, self-reflect, and change to become ever better with each passing generation.
Richard, You have eloquently and powerfully described the just cause, and lofty aspirations, that we can and must stand up to defend. The life-giving bonds of family, of neighborhood, of city are dissolving around me … a social madness has convinced too many to replace “love thy neighbor” with “fear thy neighbor”. If ever there was a time to demonstrate the power of love, it is now … when my children erupted in volcanic tantrums, in some way, I embraced them to keep them from hurting themselves, until their madness passed …. I cannot let my family, my neighborhood, my city go now, while the madness still consumes them …. I do not save myself by leaving those who are me
Been thinking about this column all day. I appreciate that some in this country would need to move away for legitimate reasons but is it time for those who dislike what we see to leave? Or better to stay and fight, educate, and do whatever else we can? Genuine question I don't have an answer to right now. Twenty years ago when I lived abroad during W's forever wars and war crimes, I voted from overseas but always felt a bit helpless being away (other than trying to be a good model American expat that didn't reflect the same values as the Bush Admin). Not sure how it would feel to move away now other than to not worry about gun violence.
Also been thinking about Ruth’s question (leave or stay?) all day … and really appreciate all the very thoughtful responses here, that echo Ruth’s refusal to tell us what to do, or what she is doing, or be quick to judge the choices others make… and instead, offer helpful things to consider, to discover our best choices. I am really surprised what was revealed during the day
American culture, particularly, seems to presume that every citizen has some innate desire or capability to fight back when things get tough. I want to open up a little to reveal how some of us feel. Usually I stay silent about these things. It's kinda part of the deal.
You ask, 'is it time for those who dislike what we see to leave?' For me -- and I'm only speaking personally, though I suspect others feel this too -- the urge to flee does not arise out of a simple 'dislike,' but rather *extreme* discomfort and literal pain of seeing & feeling the conflicts happening in this country. By discomfort, I mean: I HATE this feeling of conflict, of aggression, of anger, that seems to be happening all around me. And I'm not just talking about the right: I'm seeing lefties start to talk of buying guns or fighting dirty, in order to beat the right at its own (fearful) game. Even the yelling matches become too much, too much, too much.
I'm an avowed pacifist. Most of my life I have successfully stayed off the battlefield, whether metaphorical or real. I am a good diplomat; I am a poor warrior. To put it bluntly: I will not fight. It is not in my nature. I do not have the ability, not for lack of technique but for lack of passion. If push came to shove, I would run, or simply curl up in a ball, regardless of my potential end.
Since the election, and certainly since Jan 6, I feel less and less capable of avoiding these conflicts which arise around me, from all sides. Hence, I think of fleeing.
Don't get me wrong: I don't wish to pretend it all away, to ignore it all, to find some paradise where I presume all is peaceful. I fully plan on following along, as I do, and to continue to assist, perhaps remotely, where I can. But I feel the possibilities for me, by remaining in the US, diminish by the day, along with any constructive energy.
I'll admit my privileges, though sometimes they feel less like bragging rights and more like liabilities. I'm single/solo, older (late 50s), have intentionally led a simpler life with no immediate family, and I've thankfully got means to migrate. And I've traveled all my life, and so I know there are plenty of burrows out there waiting for me to wriggle into until things get calm again.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. By fighting back, I did not mean with guns, etc. but "assist" as you put it, or educate or contribute otherwise. I'm not sure how long my constructive energy will last either. But you raise a difficult issue, which is, how do we flee elsewhere and *not* feel like we're pretending it away? I struggled with this for the 12 years I lived abroad, feeling lucky to be out of the mess at home but conflicted about what to do about it from afar. It's a tricky issue.
Along with personality disorders it is necessary to include the privative defenses deployed much like arms (AK 15s, etc.). Especially an authoritarians favorite-Projective Identification. Used daily by Trump now by Republicans at any time. It is now part of their behavior. Something I think they don't understand other than it's a feel good lie.
I think that it's important to remember that America is a heavy weight, nuclear armed military power. An apex predator as countries go. One of the things that I think was/is a real possibility is if America were to go full dictatorship, other countries, allies included, would have to band together to take us down, simply to save themselves. America as a rogue state is too dangerous to be allowed to live. In that kind of scenario, exile or immigation is not an option.
Important reminder, Robyn … I had forgotten, that, in so many ways, the world is a much smaller place than it was yesterday .. and it just grew smaller
As Steve R. Noted Bandy Lee’s work was early and excellent. As is her “Profile of A Nation:”. I’ll offer a personal and professional perspective. I have a cousin who will never and should never get out of prison for murdering his wife in front of their 3/4 yr old. He has all the empathy of Trump. He was always right while everyone else was wrong. Intolerable for his ego. During my years in mental health practice I observed similar examples. At times these situations devolved family, friends, social groups, organizations, etc. into well cemented factions. “You’re either with us or against us!”. It takes the firmest of boundaries and great resolve to cope and stand up to this mindset. They will wear you/us down. However, together - with time and resolve they will wear down. Truly United we stand. It’ll take us all.
For personal and group health please read and practice Dr. Lee’s “Profile of a Nation” page 138. Be healthy. Be hopeful. Be strong.
We, my East Asian-American wife and this old white guy, have decided to stay and safely engage where we are able while continuing to search for additional opportunities. Safely is focus. AAIP is obvious here in California (within breathing distance of “The Happiest Place on Earth”) as is our own version of the ever expanding divide. So having this Lucid forum is helpful to be engaged with an aware community. It is greatly appreciated. All of you contributors are a breath of hope. Hope to hang on to firmly. Thanks
Contemplating going into exile is an extremely scary proposition. What does one do when there are close ties to family?? Can one coordinate the exile of 3 generations of people spread over 3 family units? How does one contemplate disrupting school and work and secure health care services for the elderly? How did those who left Nazi Germany know that "Now" was the time? We know the difficulty that many of the had in finding a country willing to take them. To have the confidence that things would be better, that things would work out is just amazing to me. Too many people want to make the US a strong "Christian" nation without, sometimes, stopping to think about the implications of what that means.
How did those who left Nazi Germany know that "Now" was the time?
Probably they were alert, followed their gut--and were in many cases conflicted. Even with the privilege to do so, exile is a very hard leap to make. For my own part I have so far had Mid-Nov 2022 as a firm "decide by" date. As a historian, I respect, but do not share Dr. Ben-Ghiat's view that an in-coming GOP regime will not extend mass incarceration to Everyone who opposes its aims and vision. I am also concerned that they will do as most other dictatorships do and sooner or later close the borders to those who wish to leave. Sarah Kendzior and Andrea Chalupa asked us to know what is our "line in the sand" as America probably descends into fascism. Mine is that I would die for my friends here; but I will not die or be tortured for some "idea of America".
I have wondered what the political repression of a second Trump or otherwise authoritarian regime would look like. I think they are going to rely a great deal on stochastic violence - constantly pushing their base to violence that is terrorizing but uncoordinated, though the network of contracted detention centers are there for a reason.
It will be bad for anyone not being a party member. Just like in Germany, when people outside of the NAZI Party would be marginalized or worse. In typical sociopathic fashion, Trump has long consider those not kissing his ring to be traitors. If he got back into power, this nation would be a hellscape.
As a person of color who is also gay, this hits home for me. I have contemplated leaving the US since Trump was elected in 2016, but I had hope that a Biden win would kind of "solve" many of our issues. Boy was I wrong. I have to do more research, but I still don't understand how an American can just pick up and move to a foreign country without the lengthy process of obtaining a work visa (certainly I don't think anyone here would qualify for asylum!). I also happen to be a caretaker to my mother, who is in poor health and complicates things even more. Guess I'll see you all in the gulags? (Joking! Kind of...).
Jason, yes these are all real concerns. I could not fit all the points I wanted to make in the post, how it's not a linear process and sometimes people go to another dictatorship as a first stopping point - sounds crazy to us, but it was the only way they could get out. So people from Nazi Germany went to Fascist Italy, and people from Pinochet's Chile went to the Brazilian military dictatorship. Guess I need to write a followup!
Well, considering how often I have spoken up to my Congressional reps (both Senators & my particular House Rep are all not just trump supporters but trump lapdogs) I imagine I’ll see you in the gulag/re-education camp. It would not surprise me at all to be on some list for future punishment for speaking my mind and telling them to do their actual job - the one they swore an oath to. I’ll wave to you as I’m dragged off…
How ironic that Jakisc had to flee his beloved homeland because of the dangerous meddling of the US into Chile's national affairs. The same malevolent political instinct that created the coup in 1973 in Chile is now working on blowing apart democracy here in the US. The moral rot of US foreign policy has finally returned home, to eat its own insides.
Pinochet's quasi-fascist regime was highly supported by the US elites. Our CIA was installing dictatorial regimes in many countries for many years. It was an indication of the kind of government our oligarchs truely wanted here. They surely weren't spreading democracy, like they have long advertised. Many years ago the CIA chief was Allen Dulles, a fascist leaning sociopath. This explains a lot.
We Boomers of the sixties I'm sure were viewed a ridiculously naive children, our expressing sincere faith in democracy at home and abroad. Folks like the Dulles brothers and business folks like United Fruit were probably scared witless that an entire generation of US youth actually believed the democratic propaganda that leaders and educators had been feeding us throughout the 40s, 50s and 60s. No wonder big business felt it had no choice but declare war against so effete a mindset as those who took democratic ideals seriously. The neoconservative and neo-liberal backlash is about the nihilistic cynicism of the old guard fighting a convenient communist bogey man. These dark figures are why we are here. They have waged war against the powerless in this country to keep us backward, scared, and pliant.
For how poorly the US treated its "Little Brothers" in Central and South America during the Cold War check out Stephen Rabe's fine little book "The Killing Zone."
Not sure if this is like the situation where the train is coming and Ruth is suggesting we get off the tracks before it's too late or not? My own view is that the train left the station in 2015 and hasn't stopped coming. Its speed was temporarily slowed in 2020 but it's been fueling up for a big acceleration starting in 22 & 24.
I'm here on this forum as a member of the Lucid community because I respect Ruth Ben-Ghiat's expertise as a scholar of propaganda and authoritarianism. She has a record of making accurate forecasts and predictions that validate the theoretical framework of her five tools of rule strongmen playbook! She knows how to see the game as it were. So if she is suggesting this might not be a bad time to start thinking about getting out of Dodge while you still can, I take her seriously.. particularly as a jew who is in one of the categories of minorities that authoritarians and strongmen typically persecute.
Chalmers Johnson, the author of "Blowback," "Sorrows of Empire," and "Nemesis," did suggest to younger folks that if they had skills and could speak another language that they might want to at least consider emigrating from this country to somewhere else. Johnson was convinced that this country had bankrupted itself by endless defense funding and wars abroad. He did not see a happy future for younger folks in this country.
Whether or not one chooses to stay or to go, the choice and its consequences will always be property of the person making the choice.
These issues are not simple. And they are not completely certain.
I am trying not to tell anyone to do one thing or another but rather to lay out all the issues, since every situation is different. I wrote it to pose the issue publicly.
Should I stay or should I go is a topic many of us have contemplated on and off the past few years since Trump has converted the GOP into an authoritarian leader cult. Democracy as we've know it in this country is becoming an endangered species.
So wonderfully told and charged with insight as to the diaspora of the unwanted, persecuted, and abandoned. I tell everyone that George W Bush forced my exile to Sweden, that guns, and arrogance, hubris and racial hatred became too great for me to bear, as the hypocrisy America has become in the eyes of the world. Would I return? Yes, only to be shot by patriots. I would export Swedish values everywhere.
On not getting out in time. A Thread/ Bird App. 31 Aug. 2021
@AuntyNationalAH
Here's a family story: By the mid-1930's my Chicago-based Grandfather was pleading with his German *gentile*, bourgeois cousins to come to the US for safety. My Grandfather himself was active in Anti-Nazi resistance in the German-American community 1/n
...So much so that my Mother and Aunt had a security detail going to and from school. In Germany, for their part, the cousins were elderly liberal academics who did what they could to shield Jewish friends and colleagues from Nazi purges in higher ed. 2/n
Aug 31
They were brave. They Absolutely made the right moral choices and they figured "we're not Jewish ourselves, so we'll be OK." They stayed put. They were soon arrested by the nazis, who didn't take the Herr Professor and his wife to the Camps... 3/n
Aug 31
Instead the elderly, urban couple were exiled to their cold-water summer cabin deep in the Black Forest. In 1945, my Grandfather was able to locate this cabin and his cousins. The professor had died of starvation and exposure weighing c97 lbs; 4/n
·
Aug 31
His wife survived him for a few weeks and then succumbed. Their daughter, Herta was a zealous nazi & she had informed on her parents to the gestapo for being enemies of the Reich. 5/n
Aug 31
Having grown up, from a young age on this family lore, I am a committed #Resister--and I always have an eye on the nearest exit. /finish
actions
I had the same dilemma when the current governor in my state was elected (I live in Alaska). After the governor's administration embarked on a program of hacking both the state government and the university to pieces, I debated over whether to just call it quits and move to another state or not. Ultimately, I decided that I would not be run out of the state I was born in and love so much. I became more politically active. I wrote letters, I gave testimony, I went to rallies, I signed petitions. And a strange thing happened. People from across the political spectrum came together and fought back against the cuts and against the governor's right-wing agenda. We weren't successful in forcing a recall election (Covid stayed our hand), but we were able to halt most of the destruction. I learned two things from this experience: 1) the University and the state programs were more popular than I had given them credit for and 2) the people who wanted them hollowed out were a minority--a vocal minority, to be sure, but a minority all the same. Bottom line: We are the majority and we should always stand to fight because our state, our lives, and our democracy are worth fighting for.
Thank you sooo much for this Robyn. It is heartening to hear your story,sctions and results. I will double down on my search efforts for the local majority. Sharing your experience is helpful, Thanks!
Thank you Ruth for posing the question and everyone for honest thoughts. I went to bed last night thinking of this and now up thinking the same. I look around and see all parts of this issue displayed. My wife and I suppose we'll stay but make leaving preparations. Tiawan, my wife's birth place as a potential option.
Before 2015 I was a fringe political person. But with Trump and the rise of authorianism recognition that the reality of our mass shared psychosis is here and treatment resistant. I fear what treatment can be effictive? I'll continue to seek opportunities for change. I believe it will take all of us working together for change. So here's to the work and the faith.
Gary, I'm half Taiwanese and was also thinking of Taiwan (my mother has a Taiwanese passport). But don't you think invasion by China is basically guaranteed in the next five years or so? That is one thing that has given me great pause.
Good morning Jason, please accept my apology for this late reply. Our house hold is of two minds regarding Taiwan and China. I am fearful of a mainland invasion. I am a firm anti-authoritarian believer as is my wife except when it comes to China. Rose is certain that China will find a way to unify ONE China. She sees this as inevitable and good. "Too much freedom leads to chaos!" in China. Her adult Twainese daughter agrees. They are Blue party. Her brother is Green party and supports an independent Taiwan. Other siblings are very quiet on this topic. So we agree to disagree on China. As you might imagine it is complicated. As for exhile, the plague is a game breaker. Her family all agree, even vacinated, the plague is an important consideration.
So we'll likely live out this petre dish social experimant in as safe a way as we can. Contributing where we are able to sanity while being alert to AAPI hate and any around the block fundamentalist activity.
This forum seems not for casual chat however I am interisted in how your mother thinks and feels about all this. Please feel free to communicate. Thanks Jason.
My wife is a refugee from Azerbaijan. After the Soviet state weakened, an Azeri authoritarian regime emerged that stoked ethnic hatred against Armenians, of whom my wife was a member. Fleeing in the dark of night, her family escaped to Armenia, Ukraine, Russia, ultimately many to the U.S. They were the lucky ones with means and insight. They still landed in the U.S. with little but the clothes on their backs and pennies in their pockets.
As we elected Trump and moved forward through his presidency, she and some of her emigre friends expressed grave concerns over the deja vu they were experiencing. "Even here," they sighed, "even here."
We must not let this happen, let us slip into tribal enmities, petty fears, racial definitions of "us" and "them," stoked by cynical power-seekers manipulating our information space. Therein lies true Hell on earth.
We must make our voices heard above the din of culture war battles, that we are all Americans striving to create a more just world for everyone, all cultures, all creeds, all tongues, all faiths, all skin-tones, all genders, all - to truly create that shining City on the hill that is the envy of the world, not because it is the best that can be, but because it continues to, through democracy, introspect, self-reflect, and change to become ever better with each passing generation.
We can do this. We must do this. We will do this.
Richard, You have eloquently and powerfully described the just cause, and lofty aspirations, that we can and must stand up to defend. The life-giving bonds of family, of neighborhood, of city are dissolving around me … a social madness has convinced too many to replace “love thy neighbor” with “fear thy neighbor”. If ever there was a time to demonstrate the power of love, it is now … when my children erupted in volcanic tantrums, in some way, I embraced them to keep them from hurting themselves, until their madness passed …. I cannot let my family, my neighborhood, my city go now, while the madness still consumes them …. I do not save myself by leaving those who are me
Been thinking about this column all day. I appreciate that some in this country would need to move away for legitimate reasons but is it time for those who dislike what we see to leave? Or better to stay and fight, educate, and do whatever else we can? Genuine question I don't have an answer to right now. Twenty years ago when I lived abroad during W's forever wars and war crimes, I voted from overseas but always felt a bit helpless being away (other than trying to be a good model American expat that didn't reflect the same values as the Bush Admin). Not sure how it would feel to move away now other than to not worry about gun violence.
Also been thinking about Ruth’s question (leave or stay?) all day … and really appreciate all the very thoughtful responses here, that echo Ruth’s refusal to tell us what to do, or what she is doing, or be quick to judge the choices others make… and instead, offer helpful things to consider, to discover our best choices. I am really surprised what was revealed during the day
American culture, particularly, seems to presume that every citizen has some innate desire or capability to fight back when things get tough. I want to open up a little to reveal how some of us feel. Usually I stay silent about these things. It's kinda part of the deal.
You ask, 'is it time for those who dislike what we see to leave?' For me -- and I'm only speaking personally, though I suspect others feel this too -- the urge to flee does not arise out of a simple 'dislike,' but rather *extreme* discomfort and literal pain of seeing & feeling the conflicts happening in this country. By discomfort, I mean: I HATE this feeling of conflict, of aggression, of anger, that seems to be happening all around me. And I'm not just talking about the right: I'm seeing lefties start to talk of buying guns or fighting dirty, in order to beat the right at its own (fearful) game. Even the yelling matches become too much, too much, too much.
I'm an avowed pacifist. Most of my life I have successfully stayed off the battlefield, whether metaphorical or real. I am a good diplomat; I am a poor warrior. To put it bluntly: I will not fight. It is not in my nature. I do not have the ability, not for lack of technique but for lack of passion. If push came to shove, I would run, or simply curl up in a ball, regardless of my potential end.
Since the election, and certainly since Jan 6, I feel less and less capable of avoiding these conflicts which arise around me, from all sides. Hence, I think of fleeing.
Don't get me wrong: I don't wish to pretend it all away, to ignore it all, to find some paradise where I presume all is peaceful. I fully plan on following along, as I do, and to continue to assist, perhaps remotely, where I can. But I feel the possibilities for me, by remaining in the US, diminish by the day, along with any constructive energy.
I'll admit my privileges, though sometimes they feel less like bragging rights and more like liabilities. I'm single/solo, older (late 50s), have intentionally led a simpler life with no immediate family, and I've thankfully got means to migrate. And I've traveled all my life, and so I know there are plenty of burrows out there waiting for me to wriggle into until things get calm again.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. By fighting back, I did not mean with guns, etc. but "assist" as you put it, or educate or contribute otherwise. I'm not sure how long my constructive energy will last either. But you raise a difficult issue, which is, how do we flee elsewhere and *not* feel like we're pretending it away? I struggled with this for the 12 years I lived abroad, feeling lucky to be out of the mess at home but conflicted about what to do about it from afar. It's a tricky issue.
Laura glad the column stayed with you, it was designed to make people ponder the issue.
Along with personality disorders it is necessary to include the privative defenses deployed much like arms (AK 15s, etc.). Especially an authoritarians favorite-Projective Identification. Used daily by Trump now by Republicans at any time. It is now part of their behavior. Something I think they don't understand other than it's a feel good lie.
I think that it's important to remember that America is a heavy weight, nuclear armed military power. An apex predator as countries go. One of the things that I think was/is a real possibility is if America were to go full dictatorship, other countries, allies included, would have to band together to take us down, simply to save themselves. America as a rogue state is too dangerous to be allowed to live. In that kind of scenario, exile or immigation is not an option.
Important reminder, Robyn … I had forgotten, that, in so many ways, the world is a much smaller place than it was yesterday .. and it just grew smaller
Apex predator - good phrase
As Steve R. Noted Bandy Lee’s work was early and excellent. As is her “Profile of A Nation:”. I’ll offer a personal and professional perspective. I have a cousin who will never and should never get out of prison for murdering his wife in front of their 3/4 yr old. He has all the empathy of Trump. He was always right while everyone else was wrong. Intolerable for his ego. During my years in mental health practice I observed similar examples. At times these situations devolved family, friends, social groups, organizations, etc. into well cemented factions. “You’re either with us or against us!”. It takes the firmest of boundaries and great resolve to cope and stand up to this mindset. They will wear you/us down. However, together - with time and resolve they will wear down. Truly United we stand. It’ll take us all.
For personal and group health please read and practice Dr. Lee’s “Profile of a Nation” page 138. Be healthy. Be hopeful. Be strong.
Bandy Lee’s work is excellent. I also found Democracy in Chains, How Democracies Die & Dark Money all educational.
We, my East Asian-American wife and this old white guy, have decided to stay and safely engage where we are able while continuing to search for additional opportunities. Safely is focus. AAIP is obvious here in California (within breathing distance of “The Happiest Place on Earth”) as is our own version of the ever expanding divide. So having this Lucid forum is helpful to be engaged with an aware community. It is greatly appreciated. All of you contributors are a breath of hope. Hope to hang on to firmly. Thanks
Contemplating going into exile is an extremely scary proposition. What does one do when there are close ties to family?? Can one coordinate the exile of 3 generations of people spread over 3 family units? How does one contemplate disrupting school and work and secure health care services for the elderly? How did those who left Nazi Germany know that "Now" was the time? We know the difficulty that many of the had in finding a country willing to take them. To have the confidence that things would be better, that things would work out is just amazing to me. Too many people want to make the US a strong "Christian" nation without, sometimes, stopping to think about the implications of what that means.
How did those who left Nazi Germany know that "Now" was the time?
Probably they were alert, followed their gut--and were in many cases conflicted. Even with the privilege to do so, exile is a very hard leap to make. For my own part I have so far had Mid-Nov 2022 as a firm "decide by" date. As a historian, I respect, but do not share Dr. Ben-Ghiat's view that an in-coming GOP regime will not extend mass incarceration to Everyone who opposes its aims and vision. I am also concerned that they will do as most other dictatorships do and sooner or later close the borders to those who wish to leave. Sarah Kendzior and Andrea Chalupa asked us to know what is our "line in the sand" as America probably descends into fascism. Mine is that I would die for my friends here; but I will not die or be tortured for some "idea of America".
I have wondered what the political repression of a second Trump or otherwise authoritarian regime would look like. I think they are going to rely a great deal on stochastic violence - constantly pushing their base to violence that is terrorizing but uncoordinated, though the network of contracted detention centers are there for a reason.
It will be bad for anyone not being a party member. Just like in Germany, when people outside of the NAZI Party would be marginalized or worse. In typical sociopathic fashion, Trump has long consider those not kissing his ring to be traitors. If he got back into power, this nation would be a hellscape.
As a person of color who is also gay, this hits home for me. I have contemplated leaving the US since Trump was elected in 2016, but I had hope that a Biden win would kind of "solve" many of our issues. Boy was I wrong. I have to do more research, but I still don't understand how an American can just pick up and move to a foreign country without the lengthy process of obtaining a work visa (certainly I don't think anyone here would qualify for asylum!). I also happen to be a caretaker to my mother, who is in poor health and complicates things even more. Guess I'll see you all in the gulags? (Joking! Kind of...).
Jason, yes these are all real concerns. I could not fit all the points I wanted to make in the post, how it's not a linear process and sometimes people go to another dictatorship as a first stopping point - sounds crazy to us, but it was the only way they could get out. So people from Nazi Germany went to Fascist Italy, and people from Pinochet's Chile went to the Brazilian military dictatorship. Guess I need to write a followup!
Well, considering how often I have spoken up to my Congressional reps (both Senators & my particular House Rep are all not just trump supporters but trump lapdogs) I imagine I’ll see you in the gulag/re-education camp. It would not surprise me at all to be on some list for future punishment for speaking my mind and telling them to do their actual job - the one they swore an oath to. I’ll wave to you as I’m dragged off…
How ironic that Jakisc had to flee his beloved homeland because of the dangerous meddling of the US into Chile's national affairs. The same malevolent political instinct that created the coup in 1973 in Chile is now working on blowing apart democracy here in the US. The moral rot of US foreign policy has finally returned home, to eat its own insides.
Pinochet's quasi-fascist regime was highly supported by the US elites. Our CIA was installing dictatorial regimes in many countries for many years. It was an indication of the kind of government our oligarchs truely wanted here. They surely weren't spreading democracy, like they have long advertised. Many years ago the CIA chief was Allen Dulles, a fascist leaning sociopath. This explains a lot.
We Boomers of the sixties I'm sure were viewed a ridiculously naive children, our expressing sincere faith in democracy at home and abroad. Folks like the Dulles brothers and business folks like United Fruit were probably scared witless that an entire generation of US youth actually believed the democratic propaganda that leaders and educators had been feeding us throughout the 40s, 50s and 60s. No wonder big business felt it had no choice but declare war against so effete a mindset as those who took democratic ideals seriously. The neoconservative and neo-liberal backlash is about the nihilistic cynicism of the old guard fighting a convenient communist bogey man. These dark figures are why we are here. They have waged war against the powerless in this country to keep us backward, scared, and pliant.
For how poorly the US treated its "Little Brothers" in Central and South America during the Cold War check out Stephen Rabe's fine little book "The Killing Zone."
Not sure if this is like the situation where the train is coming and Ruth is suggesting we get off the tracks before it's too late or not? My own view is that the train left the station in 2015 and hasn't stopped coming. Its speed was temporarily slowed in 2020 but it's been fueling up for a big acceleration starting in 22 & 24.
I'm here on this forum as a member of the Lucid community because I respect Ruth Ben-Ghiat's expertise as a scholar of propaganda and authoritarianism. She has a record of making accurate forecasts and predictions that validate the theoretical framework of her five tools of rule strongmen playbook! She knows how to see the game as it were. So if she is suggesting this might not be a bad time to start thinking about getting out of Dodge while you still can, I take her seriously.. particularly as a jew who is in one of the categories of minorities that authoritarians and strongmen typically persecute.
Chalmers Johnson, the author of "Blowback," "Sorrows of Empire," and "Nemesis," did suggest to younger folks that if they had skills and could speak another language that they might want to at least consider emigrating from this country to somewhere else. Johnson was convinced that this country had bankrupted itself by endless defense funding and wars abroad. He did not see a happy future for younger folks in this country.
Whether or not one chooses to stay or to go, the choice and its consequences will always be property of the person making the choice.
These issues are not simple. And they are not completely certain.
I am trying not to tell anyone to do one thing or another but rather to lay out all the issues, since every situation is different. I wrote it to pose the issue publicly.
Should I stay or should I go is a topic many of us have contemplated on and off the past few years since Trump has converted the GOP into an authoritarian leader cult. Democracy as we've know it in this country is becoming an endangered species.