The question then becomes, how much of a connection between rump and our plutocratic oligarchs was there? We already know that the Mont Pelerin Society and wealthy Libertarian elites like Charles Koch affected policy at the top of government in the Reagan admin. They successfully moved us into economic neoliberalism that benefitted business and created our corporatocracy. But how much further would they go? Fascism? I think that was the goal, just like it was in the 1930's where business wanted to control the nation. Fascism was the vehicle that would provide that opportunity. The "oligopoly rich" cartel economies seen in many fascist nations was a business paradise. I'm betting that rump was the plutocrats' boy. Time will tell.
Steve: Minor editorial suggestion: Fascism was and still IS their goal. As usual, you’re “spot on.” The oligarchs have had and still have a long-standing unwavering commitment to their goal; hoard everything. On our side, some still debate what to call those willing, able and eager to slit our throats, literally. You’re note one of them.
I sense the fascist treasonous GOP is relentlessly on the offensive while Dems are mired playing defensive. We can’t even agree on supporting the long-overdue boycott of FL. I would add TX to the list. Thanks, Steve, for your lucid commentaries.
Steve and Robert, I like this discussion and just want to add that self-serving and abusive men, whether in business or politics, fall somewhere on the sociopathy continuum, meaning that they have little or no conscience and little or no ability to empathize with the suffering of others. They literally are not affected by, and don't care about, the consequences of their self-serving actions on others. I believe that Charles and David Koch, and probably a lot of other billionaires like the Mercers and the Waltons, fall somewhere on that scale of sociopathy.
Charles and David Koch, for example, were raised by a Hitler-loving, German nanny because their parents wanted them to have a "strict" upbringing. German child-rearing practices had been brutal for centuries and it's almost certain that little Charles and David had no tenderness when they needed it most, in infancy and early childhood. Hitler was beaten daily by his father and Trump was traumatically neglected in infancy and early childhood. If our earliest caregivers are not empathically attuned to our emotional needs, if they are cold, brutal, or indifferent to our suffering, we may never develop the capacity to genuinely care about other people, and I think that's why the rest of us suffer so much when people like this are in charge.
Charles Koch is a sociopath, so was Allen Dulles who ran the CIA. Now it makes sense why the CIA was so brutal during his reign. Kissinger, Gingrich and Netanyahu are as well. The degree of sadism in these individuals varies, but they all seem to love inflicting pain on others. Speaking of pain, Josef Mengele was a sociopath also. Pinochet loved to throw people, who went against him, out of helicopters. He was another sociopath. Under his rule, Chile was quasi-fascist, which makes perfect sense since fascism seems to be the politics of sociopathy.
Exactly, Steve. "Fascism is the politics of sociopathy," organized sociopathy, sociopathy at the group level.
I agree that all whom you've listed above fall into that category and I would include J. Edgar Hoover. Brutality, sadism, and vengeful actions are all indicators that that person or group lacks a conscience and the capacity to empathize with the suffering of others. To me, it also indicates that they each endured emotional neglect and abuse in infancy and early childhood, leaving them with an unconscious need to avenge the helpless child they once were by turning the tables and never feeling powerless again.
Madeline & Steve, trauma derived psychopathologies including but not limited to PTSD, psychopathy, sociopathy, etc seem to have reach pandemic proportions. This may benefit one group more than others, oligarchs. and/or fascists; facilitating social & economic control.
Accountability and/or treatment (institutional) is necessary, but may be wishful thinking. Society, however, has a right to protect itself. Intervention should be asap. Dr Bandy Lee tried …A true patriot.
Madeline, I too like this discussion. I thank you both.
I constantly wonder how it is they are so often handed positions of power over so many people. I wonder about the limbic need for safety and hardwiring of neural connections in the earliest years when they “attune” to authoritarian parents. When I read “It Takes A Village” by Hillary Clinton, is when I hoped she would someday become POTUS. She seemed to understand the need to support young parents in the nurturing of our youngest to be the fertile ground for a thriving democracy.
I’m so happy to see Madeline’s comment that brings forth the early parenting. ❤️🙏
I usually have a lot to say. But, this article solidifies everything I’ve learned about Strongmen. Modi, Erdogan, Bolsanaro, and Putin. We don’t always know or think about the backbenchers. Clearly, without them, the monster would be impotent.
It seems so shocking that these monstrous criminals like Meadows thought they could succeed in their criminality ... for the first time in the 1000’s of years these crimes against humanity have been committed ... and be shocked when held accountable. Makes the wisdom of Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius even more profound ... to have insured someone whisper in his ear, each time he was praised, “you are just a man, you are just a man”
The problem for me is it's not shocking anymore and I'm absolutely not even close to being desensitized to it all. They also almost got away with it. I keep hearing they've learned from their mistakes, so we'll see what happens too soon enough. Time to go kayaking and fishing again.
Good to hear Sherri, because that was part of their tactic. Keep up that vigil, sister🙌
I see the gains, the sure steps ahead are regularly making news , fewer mention of ‘thems’ is very obvious, granted we are anxious to see justice done, but more I’m excited to know the hard intricate pieces knit together as the puzzle shows even the minor players parts. It was laborious. The J6 committee did an awesome job. It was masterful . But even yet much will come out, it was critical not to hurry.
They won’t take bows. Great leaders are humble and dedicated.
Hey, Patricia: The 1/6 Committee did a wonderful-masterful job. My take on it was always they're doing this to create a historical record - not necessarily to put us back on the path of being able to maintain our democratic republic.
Although Maddow was on the wrong path in early 2017 when she was making the connections between rump and putin, David Frum and another guy whose name I've forgotten were asked if they thought it was too late to change our trajectory. One said yes and the other said no. Don't know if that was planned or really what they each thought.
LOL, there seems a lot of that going around! . I do see some real positive surfacing. Thanks to all of you for being a HUGE part of this …not sure whetherBiden or Harris or any ‘there’ read any of ‘us’ but willing to guess -yes!
That's the plan. I'm not a social media user (much of one) because of how corrupt Zuck and musk and google are (part of our kleptocracy). But my comments with Ruth's name or writing the truth has made headway on reddit (that's somewhat surprising). My concern is can the former republicans stop it from one of their many fascist tools.
One more weird thing to say here is I went to a doc. appt. early this week. I asked when he wanted me back and he said 6 months. I said something like, "If this country is still here in six months, I'll be back." He laughed and said he sees people from all over the political spectrum and every person has said the same thing.
I keep a pretty low profile on FB but haven’t in the past. My brother cautioned me living here as to the dangers that could present….I heard him. It’s definitely blood red here, so ….but I’m affiliated with several groups fighting chip by chip away ( not as it Roy😉)
It’s great to be active but wise not to target ones-self😬
Sherri, whoever is guessing that "they've learned from their mistakes" doesn't seem to understand how the mind of TFG works, nor the minds of his enablers, like Meadows.
“Time go kayaking and fishing again?” Am I missing something? I’m reacting to what Sherri posted perhaps hoping for your intervention.
I know, my questions aught to be directed to Sherri but wanted to raise them here 1st.
Again, I agree with you, but there’s more here than meets the eye, as some would say. Ignore me, I’m just thinking out loud: There’s something wrong with this (not your) picture.
As usual, you’re “spot on.” My disquieting inchoate thoughts, hopefully will crystallize by tomorrow.
Are we so naive we’re unaware of how the mind of fascist psychopaths and sociopaths work? They show no emotions because they have none.
Thank you for allowing me to use you as a sounding board; to think out loud.
Hi Robert, I would say that, yes, most of us don't realize that there are a percentage of people who can look competent, accomplished, charming, etc. yet have no ability to genuinely care about others. They are so different from us that we don't know what we're witnessing. Researchers say that about 4% of the population is made up of people who literally have no conscience...no capacity to feel for or care about the suffering of others. I wrote to you and Steve Rasmussen about this somewhere else on this thread so I won't perseverate here.
But since Nixon, the rise of right-wing think tanks funded by the Kochs, the Supreme Court decisions that permitted Big Money to contribute to political campaigns, the spread of right-wing hate radio by Rupert Murdoch, etc. there have been more and more sociopaths in politics.
The main element that's similar between these different men is this lack of conscience and their indifference to the suffering of others. Sociopaths also crave power because they never really felt loved in their early childhood. Power over others is an attempt to compensate for not feeling important enough. Money collecting, in our society, is another way that I believe some people try to enhance their sense of self-importance. And yes, many morbidly-rich white guys are also stricken with the delusion that their white skin entitles them to anything they want. TFG is the most extreme example of a sociopathic, pathologically narcissistic, developmentally-arrested White supremacist. He's also psychologically organized around revenge. He was trained by his father, Roy Cohn, and others to be ruthless in his dealings with anyone who dares to cross him. All of this makes him potentially as dangerous as Putin.
I can't remember what you were reacting to in Sherri's post but I hope I was somehow responding to your question!
When I go kayaking and fishing, it's exactly what I'm doing - taking a break from the chaos and insanity of this world. It's not something I do - "relax".
The only partially hidden messaging that I do is I don't spell out a fascist/autocrat-in-waiting name. rump made it clear in 2016/17 - he likes seeing his name everywhere whether it's commenting about the bad stuff he does or the good (what good ...). It was obvious he was feeding off seeing it, so I changed the spelling to decrease the metrics/data gathering.
But I am here and can respond to any question about my intention rather than asking someone else, no matter how lovely and perceptive, what I'm saying.
Sherri, I’ve reviewed the thread believed to pertain to us & confess I’m still at a loss as to what motivated your some of your comments. I suspect, it was promoted by an appeal for feedback, elsewhere. You stated, sarcastically: “I…can respond to any questions… rather than asking someone else, no matter how ‘lovely’ & perceptive, what [you’re] saying.”
Sarcasm undermines lucidity.
I sought feedback elsewhere about comments you made which I find often unclear, perhaps my fault I did not intend to slight you, merely seek another perspective.
We ought to strive to avoid personal sarcasm, innuendoes and/or Gaslighting. sticking to the issues.
I expressed some confusion, no harm intended.
As to kayaking & fishing, I’ve done the 1st not the 2nd, as well as canoeing. I enjoyed the 2 activities mentioned, engaged in the 70’s during less fraught times. To keep my sanity, I hike once a week in the midst of Nature 13 mi away & try to walk daily from home. When we expose personal choices or activities, we aught to be willing to accept feedback. I’ve said elsewhere that we aught to act as if our home is on fire, because it is. These words I borrowed from Greta Thunberg, 60 years my junior. While our home is burning, we’re unlike to stop trying to put out the fire to relax or recreate, travel or look at pretty pictures.
I’m willing to look at whatever motivated your apparent animus, but not willing to endure sarcasm, innuendoes or Gaslighting; assuming I was the target of your ire. I’m want to keep my comments directed at issues not the messenger. I assume this is agreeable.
Madeline, thank you for yet another lucid contribution. I’m sure many benefit, as I do. I agree, as usual.
You’re well familiar with the actors, so the following is merely to add to the conversation.
DJT was well trained by Roy Cohn, a sanguine lawyer and a sociopath. I believe he was an unrelated to Trump. Roy Cohn was, may I say, a master Machiavellian. I assume they met socially.
DJT was also trained by his father, Fred, a successful crooked real estate developer and sociopath, w typically with Zero degree of empathy, who disliked his son. Hence. DJT was molded by two corrupt sociopaths. In fact, DJT was also disliked by his mother. DJT background is a perfect recipe for mental illness, criminal behavior and thirst for revenge. I see DJT as another victim of generational trauma, an unofficial pandemic. As to Meadows I’m not as familiar with the genesis of his apparent sociopathy.
Thanks for also sharing with Steve. He’s another lucid contributor I try not to miss.
I’m not recalling my comment or reply to Sherri’s post. I should revisit. These are fraught times. We need solidarity now more than ever.
"We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions."-RFK
Even the Pope has been criitical of the American Right, that Catholic and Christian White America has replaced their spirituality with radical political ideaology. Meadows is a microcosm of the American right wing. No remorse, so reflection, no humility that what they are doing is morally wrong. They have lost the ability to think, to reason. Maga refusing to debate demonstrates this so well.
What I just don’t get, and haven’t since we heard about the electeds in on the plot from the Jan. 6 Committe Hearings (?) e.g. Roy & Lee, is why they haven’t been indicted for something akin to treason— or held accountable in any way? They violated their constitutional oaths. Why are there no consecuente for them? Is it just that the texts that have come to light are too vague? What about the Willard War Room? Weren’t some of the House& Senate leaders, like those two there?
Patience Patricia...that he’s alive still may be a part of witness protection, or future one, that he will never serve again was not likely even thought of...and ...that dozens of others wait for the shoe to drop is front and center...it’s coming.
It was methodically dissected and critiqued by many in the circles they walked. I have no doubt all the cards will be laid down with timely precision . To play the whole would give clues -as Trump is planning at this very moment-seeing whats /who has divulged. I think Jack and Fani have the goods they need ...
Hope you are right about Lee and Roy and any others getting their due in the future. Thx!
And yes, I have been a political activist in our local Indivisible and Swing Left orgs. since Trump first came into office and I will be canvassing and making calls in the coming years, like I did in 2018, 2020 and 2022.
Oh thank you so much, Patricia K. Awesome in fact. Don’t minimize any effort you can make folks . Like sands in this hour glass it’s adding up . I’ve been active for many years , a more behind the scene Gal … To all of you , you’re the best 🫶, we need everyone of you.
Today on a Lucid Zoom the 14th AMMENDMENT and specific clause was noted as likely to be used for others too, a suggestion perhaps but Ruth liked that, and Chip Roy’s name came up in reference as ‘one of the 57’ originally listed as ‘participants’ ie complicits but in addition some one commented that there was a list ( far more than 57? by now) and someone name who wrote this and a link...so sorry I missed that....ANYONE?
But we need to know who these people THE MOST DANGEROUS are , whose running against them, and where to focus.
A lady came on in the last portion of the Zoom with her birthday wish ( to better focus within your state and promote the good guys running against ‘the bad guys’.. ) her husband rallied to her request and they developed State ???.
I’m off my feed this week and not at all ‘ with it’ but hanging on/in...sorry I didn’t do more justice to you ‘birthdaylady ‘. And kudos to her husband.👏
Smith and the other prosecutors and the criminals-in-waiting keep coming up with new crimes committed. It's stunning to me. The question will always be ... did they do enough on a timely basis with former republicans lying at every step? Cool that you're in Indivisible and thanks.
Yes,but our job is long ahead. And as Still Learning says, like so many of you others ...we’re inspired by each other. Love reading your posts. Stay the course!
We lived in Asheville when rump was put in office. We participated in the women's march on 1/21/17 where I met a couple who had been looking for Meadows. They lived about 4 hours away and had been on the hunt in Raleigh and elsewhere. He was never in his office and they had been to several areas in NC trying to find him (they held up a sign for him). I didn't like or trust him then (as "our" rep (yuck)) so it wasn't surprising to learn he's part of the R.I.C.O.
Every time I see Meadows I think of Rashida Tliab and Elijah Cummings. I think about the infamous hearing in which Elijah Cummings scolded Representative Tliab for suggesting that Meadows was racist. Meadows triangulated Rep. Cummings who admonished Rep. Tliab and defended Meadows. Remember? “Come on now! We’re better than this!” It sticks in my mind. I know if Rep. Cummings lived to see what followed he would be grief stricken. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/rashida-talib-mark-meadows-1193943
Anthony, you're exactly right. These last 8 years have been a master class in sociopathy and in the super-glue of male hierarchical bonds that have repeated down through the centuries. The dynamics repeat from tyrant to tyrant. I'm loving the legal process we're seeing unfold day by day...loving it! THIS seems really different. It also makes me a bit anxious because of the numbers of armed cultists with vengeance to wreak on TFG's behalf. He signals with a glower, and his wish is their command.
But I also think that our section of the population is getting more of an education, just as with the phenomenal J6 Committee hearings, and developing a greater determination to retain democracy and the rule of law. I certainly hope so!
A master class indeed! The American voter was blind sided by Trump, in that they had little to no experience with people like Trump. So he was perceived as normal to them. They had no idea how devious and callous sociopaths can be. They had no idea that they were being used. They have no idea that they are cult members. Rump normalized sociopathic behavior and fascism in his clan. The monster and his mini-me suck ups.
You are absolutely correct, Steve, and well-said! We had never witnessed a political figure at this extreme end of the psychopathology continuum in our politics. Most untrained people had no way to understand the individual symptoms they were seeing and tried to assimilate TFG's behavior into previously known categories. Bernie was the first person to, at least, call him a pathological liar. But it literally took years for intelligent newscasters to see how the totality of his disordered personality explained his individual behaviors and made him "unfit for office," and "dangerous."
Soooo , some points to consider..1-a fairly fixed portion of American citizens want an authoritarian government which says something about their make up…2-what changes in our country are seriously frightening to a portion of our population …3- some of these behaviors seem to have strong genetic/ evolutionary links…4- what might be the specific steps to be taken that would counter these citizens… at least we have a fairly clear idea of the problems and constitutional areas of vulnerability…
Yup, but a much smaller sector Michael, there’s a lot to be done yet, and we’re as much a part of it walking it to the ballot box . I’m so proud of the work disclosing , discovering, little pieces seemingly tidbits led to larger discovery. It’s rather awesome to watch.
AND...big AND...we know who ‘they ‘ are... how’s that saying go ? Know thyself ...stay aware..or something like that😉
Michael, I don’t think most of them realize that their belief in politicians’ (usually fake) promises of jobs, etc. is leading them down the garden path towards autocracy. So many of them are poorly educated and don’t understand our form of democracy, much less how any other form of government functions. I think of results of a survey I saw, noting that only 37% of adults could correctly name our three branches of government. So why do we expect these people to be aware of the right-wing push for autocracy.
We have accepted some loss of freedoms in exchange for promises of safety, such as the Patriot Act and TSA screening. I’m not sure how much safer either one of those has actually made us. But people want to feel safe and they’ll vote for whichever party promises that
Looks like you might be saying it begins in school…if so, I agree…..it seems there are ..always..tensions between , rights, duty, expectations we have of government, individual freedoms, responsibilities to the group…etc…the balance is ..at times..complicated and difficult…data,facts,trust, truth…that which can be verified are required or it just becomes someone’s dream time which then allows the dream to become a nightmare…all this is something that must be learned, relearned and constantly tested and verified…I think any form of democracy can be quite tiring…requiring constant attention and Effort…but it’s just my view…
Yes, although I think it begins before school. I’m a retired school librarian (K-8), and found that many students entered school with a sense of entitlement already, echoing their parents’ attitudes. I kept one old book in the library that outlined responsibilities of citizenship as well as rights. I was tasked with doing the federally mandated Constitution Day education on the Constitution. It was really basic 3 branches of government) in the primary grades, but with the older students I tried to cover the Bill of Rights and stress that we also had responsibilities.
When I was a child in Junior High I remember going off on my father about my rights. That resulted in a strong lecture that every right has a corresponding responsibility, which has stuck with me. Today’s kids aren’t getting that at home and all too often, also not at school.
"1-a fairly fixed portion of American citizens want an authoritarian government which says something about their make up…"
I saw a study awhile back that said that those with an authoritarian personality prefer authoritarian government. The people that I know that support trump seem to be arrogant, selfish, combative, belligerent, binary thinkers and bigoted. They seem to have a difficult time unlearning beliefs, once absorbed (The Backfire Effect). Because of their belligerence, they are easily convinced that violence is acceptable against those that they dislike.
I agree completely with these observations, Steve. It's also been noted by researchers that many children raised in "strict father families," unconsciously absorb and identify with authoritarian attitudes and values, including corporal punishment. These kinds of families are known to prioritize obedience and "good behavior," where "nurturing-parent" families prioritize self-expression and authenticity. There's also much less physical punishment in nurturing-parent families. I've also read studies that conclude that boys, especially, are prone to idealizing authoritarian values, which leads them to vote Republican and Libertarian, having contempt for values like empathy and generosity more typically embodied by Democrats
I think this is why a good proportion of MAGA folks appear to value and embody the personality and cognitive characteristics that you describe. They were raised by parents who did, and they haven't been interested in differentiating from them.
Yes, and in the case of a narcissitic parent who likes to pick winners and losers, the children become either the golden child or the scapegoat. The golden child absorbing more of the authoritarian attitude, while the scapegoated child rejects it.
They need to see/study/experience what the citizens of Russia and like countries are . There is little that comes out past the authoritarian curtain of ‘the common folk’ let alone the Rosie picture broadcast... it would put some gravity on the image !
I hope I never have to say to the MANY MANY I am surrounded by..’ well you got exactly what you wanted...so HOWS THAT GOING FOR YA?’
Thugshots. When oh when will his texting buddies be held to account? And I didn't know Meadows was an amateur "paleontologist" - THAT story in the NYer is a headspinner what with all the (unreported) real estate dealings.
Thugshots is good. Or, how about smugshots? These smug A-holes cruise through their lives of crime as though they're in the right. Give us a break! FAFO time, say Jack & Fani (& others).
Perfect description of the ways these guys think, feel, and behave. They feel entitled to play macho games with other people's lives and suffer no consequences.
How about supporting voter suppression laws, including mail in voting and then using a voting address that wasn’t his address while mailing in his ballot?
Ruth, so interesting that you read Meadows’ torpor (sitting on the couch, scrolling through his phone, per Cassidy Hutchinson) as evidence that he had expected the violence all along. I had always thought that Hutchinson was describing an ambitious, corrupt aide de camp who was actually having a nervous breakdown — overwhelmed, had completely lost control of the phony narrative, with zero influence over his decompensating boss, and who had become catatonic & terrified, scrolling through the phone like a zombie. You make a great point about the part he actually played.
My first thought after seeing Meadow's mug shot last week was that this dude is scared shitless and doing some serious drinking. I see the shock and anger now.
More and more commentators, even on MSNBC, are saying he might be successful in getting the case moved or even in having the whole thing dropped. I didn't like the judge's question. If one issue is his duty, does it mean the whole thing gets moved?
So the question being considered is just, was one part his duty, not, is their mountains of evidence of his crime?
Whatever is coming to Meadows (consequence-wise), let it/them come! However, I must remain laser-focused on the hailstorm of consequences that legalistic prognosticators have in the forecast for the former feckless freeloader of the free world, DonutRump.
The question then becomes, how much of a connection between rump and our plutocratic oligarchs was there? We already know that the Mont Pelerin Society and wealthy Libertarian elites like Charles Koch affected policy at the top of government in the Reagan admin. They successfully moved us into economic neoliberalism that benefitted business and created our corporatocracy. But how much further would they go? Fascism? I think that was the goal, just like it was in the 1930's where business wanted to control the nation. Fascism was the vehicle that would provide that opportunity. The "oligopoly rich" cartel economies seen in many fascist nations was a business paradise. I'm betting that rump was the plutocrats' boy. Time will tell.
Steve: Minor editorial suggestion: Fascism was and still IS their goal. As usual, you’re “spot on.” The oligarchs have had and still have a long-standing unwavering commitment to their goal; hoard everything. On our side, some still debate what to call those willing, able and eager to slit our throats, literally. You’re note one of them.
I sense the fascist treasonous GOP is relentlessly on the offensive while Dems are mired playing defensive. We can’t even agree on supporting the long-overdue boycott of FL. I would add TX to the list. Thanks, Steve, for your lucid commentaries.
Steve and Robert, I like this discussion and just want to add that self-serving and abusive men, whether in business or politics, fall somewhere on the sociopathy continuum, meaning that they have little or no conscience and little or no ability to empathize with the suffering of others. They literally are not affected by, and don't care about, the consequences of their self-serving actions on others. I believe that Charles and David Koch, and probably a lot of other billionaires like the Mercers and the Waltons, fall somewhere on that scale of sociopathy.
Charles and David Koch, for example, were raised by a Hitler-loving, German nanny because their parents wanted them to have a "strict" upbringing. German child-rearing practices had been brutal for centuries and it's almost certain that little Charles and David had no tenderness when they needed it most, in infancy and early childhood. Hitler was beaten daily by his father and Trump was traumatically neglected in infancy and early childhood. If our earliest caregivers are not empathically attuned to our emotional needs, if they are cold, brutal, or indifferent to our suffering, we may never develop the capacity to genuinely care about other people, and I think that's why the rest of us suffer so much when people like this are in charge.
Charles Koch is a sociopath, so was Allen Dulles who ran the CIA. Now it makes sense why the CIA was so brutal during his reign. Kissinger, Gingrich and Netanyahu are as well. The degree of sadism in these individuals varies, but they all seem to love inflicting pain on others. Speaking of pain, Josef Mengele was a sociopath also. Pinochet loved to throw people, who went against him, out of helicopters. He was another sociopath. Under his rule, Chile was quasi-fascist, which makes perfect sense since fascism seems to be the politics of sociopathy.
Exactly, Steve. "Fascism is the politics of sociopathy," organized sociopathy, sociopathy at the group level.
I agree that all whom you've listed above fall into that category and I would include J. Edgar Hoover. Brutality, sadism, and vengeful actions are all indicators that that person or group lacks a conscience and the capacity to empathize with the suffering of others. To me, it also indicates that they each endured emotional neglect and abuse in infancy and early childhood, leaving them with an unconscious need to avenge the helpless child they once were by turning the tables and never feeling powerless again.
Madeline & Steve, trauma derived psychopathologies including but not limited to PTSD, psychopathy, sociopathy, etc seem to have reach pandemic proportions. This may benefit one group more than others, oligarchs. and/or fascists; facilitating social & economic control.
Accountability and/or treatment (institutional) is necessary, but may be wishful thinking. Society, however, has a right to protect itself. Intervention should be asap. Dr Bandy Lee tried …A true patriot.
Madeline, I too like this discussion. I thank you both.
Under Pinochet, in my view, Chile was fascist—not quasi-fascist.
I constantly wonder how it is they are so often handed positions of power over so many people. I wonder about the limbic need for safety and hardwiring of neural connections in the earliest years when they “attune” to authoritarian parents. When I read “It Takes A Village” by Hillary Clinton, is when I hoped she would someday become POTUS. She seemed to understand the need to support young parents in the nurturing of our youngest to be the fertile ground for a thriving democracy.
I’m so happy to see Madeline’s comment that brings forth the early parenting. ❤️🙏
So good. Thanks.
I usually have a lot to say. But, this article solidifies everything I’ve learned about Strongmen. Modi, Erdogan, Bolsanaro, and Putin. We don’t always know or think about the backbenchers. Clearly, without them, the monster would be impotent.
My first thought when I saw the mugshot was that he did not really believe that it was happening.
It seems so shocking that these monstrous criminals like Meadows thought they could succeed in their criminality ... for the first time in the 1000’s of years these crimes against humanity have been committed ... and be shocked when held accountable. Makes the wisdom of Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius even more profound ... to have insured someone whisper in his ear, each time he was praised, “you are just a man, you are just a man”
The problem for me is it's not shocking anymore and I'm absolutely not even close to being desensitized to it all. They also almost got away with it. I keep hearing they've learned from their mistakes, so we'll see what happens too soon enough. Time to go kayaking and fishing again.
Good to hear Sherri, because that was part of their tactic. Keep up that vigil, sister🙌
I see the gains, the sure steps ahead are regularly making news , fewer mention of ‘thems’ is very obvious, granted we are anxious to see justice done, but more I’m excited to know the hard intricate pieces knit together as the puzzle shows even the minor players parts. It was laborious. The J6 committee did an awesome job. It was masterful . But even yet much will come out, it was critical not to hurry.
They won’t take bows. Great leaders are humble and dedicated.
Hey, Patricia: The 1/6 Committee did a wonderful-masterful job. My take on it was always they're doing this to create a historical record - not necessarily to put us back on the path of being able to maintain our democratic republic.
Although Maddow was on the wrong path in early 2017 when she was making the connections between rump and putin, David Frum and another guy whose name I've forgotten were asked if they thought it was too late to change our trajectory. One said yes and the other said no. Don't know if that was planned or really what they each thought.
LOL, there seems a lot of that going around! . I do see some real positive surfacing. Thanks to all of you for being a HUGE part of this …not sure whetherBiden or Harris or any ‘there’ read any of ‘us’ but willing to guess -yes!
💙💙VOTE THE COMPLICIT ALL OUT💙💙
That's the plan. I'm not a social media user (much of one) because of how corrupt Zuck and musk and google are (part of our kleptocracy). But my comments with Ruth's name or writing the truth has made headway on reddit (that's somewhat surprising). My concern is can the former republicans stop it from one of their many fascist tools.
One more weird thing to say here is I went to a doc. appt. early this week. I asked when he wanted me back and he said 6 months. I said something like, "If this country is still here in six months, I'll be back." He laughed and said he sees people from all over the political spectrum and every person has said the same thing.
I keep a pretty low profile on FB but haven’t in the past. My brother cautioned me living here as to the dangers that could present….I heard him. It’s definitely blood red here, so ….but I’m affiliated with several groups fighting chip by chip away ( not as it Roy😉)
It’s great to be active but wise not to target ones-self😬
Sherri, whoever is guessing that "they've learned from their mistakes" doesn't seem to understand how the mind of TFG works, nor the minds of his enablers, like Meadows.
Madeline: Cognitive dissonance, delusional?
“Time go kayaking and fishing again?” Am I missing something? I’m reacting to what Sherri posted perhaps hoping for your intervention.
I know, my questions aught to be directed to Sherri but wanted to raise them here 1st.
Again, I agree with you, but there’s more here than meets the eye, as some would say. Ignore me, I’m just thinking out loud: There’s something wrong with this (not your) picture.
As usual, you’re “spot on.” My disquieting inchoate thoughts, hopefully will crystallize by tomorrow.
Are we so naive we’re unaware of how the mind of fascist psychopaths and sociopaths work? They show no emotions because they have none.
Thank you for allowing me to use you as a sounding board; to think out loud.
Hi Robert, I would say that, yes, most of us don't realize that there are a percentage of people who can look competent, accomplished, charming, etc. yet have no ability to genuinely care about others. They are so different from us that we don't know what we're witnessing. Researchers say that about 4% of the population is made up of people who literally have no conscience...no capacity to feel for or care about the suffering of others. I wrote to you and Steve Rasmussen about this somewhere else on this thread so I won't perseverate here.
But since Nixon, the rise of right-wing think tanks funded by the Kochs, the Supreme Court decisions that permitted Big Money to contribute to political campaigns, the spread of right-wing hate radio by Rupert Murdoch, etc. there have been more and more sociopaths in politics.
The main element that's similar between these different men is this lack of conscience and their indifference to the suffering of others. Sociopaths also crave power because they never really felt loved in their early childhood. Power over others is an attempt to compensate for not feeling important enough. Money collecting, in our society, is another way that I believe some people try to enhance their sense of self-importance. And yes, many morbidly-rich white guys are also stricken with the delusion that their white skin entitles them to anything they want. TFG is the most extreme example of a sociopathic, pathologically narcissistic, developmentally-arrested White supremacist. He's also psychologically organized around revenge. He was trained by his father, Roy Cohn, and others to be ruthless in his dealings with anyone who dares to cross him. All of this makes him potentially as dangerous as Putin.
I can't remember what you were reacting to in Sherri's post but I hope I was somehow responding to your question!
When I go kayaking and fishing, it's exactly what I'm doing - taking a break from the chaos and insanity of this world. It's not something I do - "relax".
The only partially hidden messaging that I do is I don't spell out a fascist/autocrat-in-waiting name. rump made it clear in 2016/17 - he likes seeing his name everywhere whether it's commenting about the bad stuff he does or the good (what good ...). It was obvious he was feeding off seeing it, so I changed the spelling to decrease the metrics/data gathering.
But I am here and can respond to any question about my intention rather than asking someone else, no matter how lovely and perceptive, what I'm saying.
Sherri, I’ve reviewed the thread believed to pertain to us & confess I’m still at a loss as to what motivated your some of your comments. I suspect, it was promoted by an appeal for feedback, elsewhere. You stated, sarcastically: “I…can respond to any questions… rather than asking someone else, no matter how ‘lovely’ & perceptive, what [you’re] saying.”
Sarcasm undermines lucidity.
I sought feedback elsewhere about comments you made which I find often unclear, perhaps my fault I did not intend to slight you, merely seek another perspective.
We ought to strive to avoid personal sarcasm, innuendoes and/or Gaslighting. sticking to the issues.
I expressed some confusion, no harm intended.
As to kayaking & fishing, I’ve done the 1st not the 2nd, as well as canoeing. I enjoyed the 2 activities mentioned, engaged in the 70’s during less fraught times. To keep my sanity, I hike once a week in the midst of Nature 13 mi away & try to walk daily from home. When we expose personal choices or activities, we aught to be willing to accept feedback. I’ve said elsewhere that we aught to act as if our home is on fire, because it is. These words I borrowed from Greta Thunberg, 60 years my junior. While our home is burning, we’re unlike to stop trying to put out the fire to relax or recreate, travel or look at pretty pictures.
I’m willing to look at whatever motivated your apparent animus, but not willing to endure sarcasm, innuendoes or Gaslighting; assuming I was the target of your ire. I’m want to keep my comments directed at issues not the messenger. I assume this is agreeable.
Madeline, thank you for yet another lucid contribution. I’m sure many benefit, as I do. I agree, as usual.
You’re well familiar with the actors, so the following is merely to add to the conversation.
DJT was well trained by Roy Cohn, a sanguine lawyer and a sociopath. I believe he was an unrelated to Trump. Roy Cohn was, may I say, a master Machiavellian. I assume they met socially.
DJT was also trained by his father, Fred, a successful crooked real estate developer and sociopath, w typically with Zero degree of empathy, who disliked his son. Hence. DJT was molded by two corrupt sociopaths. In fact, DJT was also disliked by his mother. DJT background is a perfect recipe for mental illness, criminal behavior and thirst for revenge. I see DJT as another victim of generational trauma, an unofficial pandemic. As to Meadows I’m not as familiar with the genesis of his apparent sociopathy.
Thanks for also sharing with Steve. He’s another lucid contributor I try not to miss.
I’m not recalling my comment or reply to Sherri’s post. I should revisit. These are fraught times. We need solidarity now more than ever.
"We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions."-RFK
Even the Pope has been criitical of the American Right, that Catholic and Christian White America has replaced their spirituality with radical political ideaology. Meadows is a microcosm of the American right wing. No remorse, so reflection, no humility that what they are doing is morally wrong. They have lost the ability to think, to reason. Maga refusing to debate demonstrates this so well.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/pope-francis-criticizes-us-conservatives
Wake up call for white christian America for sure.
Thank you Ruth! It is even more necessary that the ‘suits’ and not just the ‘boots’ get prosecuted.
What I just don’t get, and haven’t since we heard about the electeds in on the plot from the Jan. 6 Committe Hearings (?) e.g. Roy & Lee, is why they haven’t been indicted for something akin to treason— or held accountable in any way? They violated their constitutional oaths. Why are there no consecuente for them? Is it just that the texts that have come to light are too vague? What about the Willard War Room? Weren’t some of the House& Senate leaders, like those two there?
Patience Patricia...that he’s alive still may be a part of witness protection, or future one, that he will never serve again was not likely even thought of...and ...that dozens of others wait for the shoe to drop is front and center...it’s coming.
It was methodically dissected and critiqued by many in the circles they walked. I have no doubt all the cards will be laid down with timely precision . To play the whole would give clues -as Trump is planning at this very moment-seeing whats /who has divulged. I think Jack and Fani have the goods they need ...
and will use it for the rest.of.them.one. by. one.
The ends for such people over and over have not gone well at all.
💙💙DO YOUR PART IN 2024, 2026, and then on..💙💙
Hope you are right about Lee and Roy and any others getting their due in the future. Thx!
And yes, I have been a political activist in our local Indivisible and Swing Left orgs. since Trump first came into office and I will be canvassing and making calls in the coming years, like I did in 2018, 2020 and 2022.
Oh thank you so much, Patricia K. Awesome in fact. Don’t minimize any effort you can make folks . Like sands in this hour glass it’s adding up . I’ve been active for many years , a more behind the scene Gal … To all of you , you’re the best 🫶, we need everyone of you.
💙💙VOTE💙💙
Today on a Lucid Zoom the 14th AMMENDMENT and specific clause was noted as likely to be used for others too, a suggestion perhaps but Ruth liked that, and Chip Roy’s name came up in reference as ‘one of the 57’ originally listed as ‘participants’ ie complicits but in addition some one commented that there was a list ( far more than 57? by now) and someone name who wrote this and a link...so sorry I missed that....ANYONE?
But we need to know who these people THE MOST DANGEROUS are , whose running against them, and where to focus.
A lady came on in the last portion of the Zoom with her birthday wish ( to better focus within your state and promote the good guys running against ‘the bad guys’.. ) her husband rallied to her request and they developed State ???.
I’m off my feed this week and not at all ‘ with it’ but hanging on/in...sorry I didn’t do more justice to you ‘birthdaylady ‘. And kudos to her husband.👏
💙💙VOTE EVERY TIME💙💙
Smith and the other prosecutors and the criminals-in-waiting keep coming up with new crimes committed. It's stunning to me. The question will always be ... did they do enough on a timely basis with former republicans lying at every step? Cool that you're in Indivisible and thanks.
Exactly right, important cards best held close to the vest as they say. Oh my, the squirming going among the many more.
Yes,but our job is long ahead. And as Still Learning says, like so many of you others ...we’re inspired by each other. Love reading your posts. Stay the course!
Patricia, I believe further indictments are coming which will include Messrs. Roy and Lee.
Good to know, Mansur! But where would they come from? Jack Smith's Jan. 6 indictment of Trump only names him, right? To keep it simple...
This will be unraveled for years!
We lived in Asheville when rump was put in office. We participated in the women's march on 1/21/17 where I met a couple who had been looking for Meadows. They lived about 4 hours away and had been on the hunt in Raleigh and elsewhere. He was never in his office and they had been to several areas in NC trying to find him (they held up a sign for him). I didn't like or trust him then (as "our" rep (yuck)) so it wasn't surprising to learn he's part of the R.I.C.O.
He looks exhausted and I'm sorry but I'm glad.
Every time I see Meadows I think of Rashida Tliab and Elijah Cummings. I think about the infamous hearing in which Elijah Cummings scolded Representative Tliab for suggesting that Meadows was racist. Meadows triangulated Rep. Cummings who admonished Rep. Tliab and defended Meadows. Remember? “Come on now! We’re better than this!” It sticks in my mind. I know if Rep. Cummings lived to see what followed he would be grief stricken. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/rashida-talib-mark-meadows-1193943
Triangulated
Possibly narcissitic triangulation, where a narcissist uses someone else to do some deed for them.
And we can never stop talking about this, until these concepts are better integrated into voter's radars when selecting and voting on candidates. 🌎
The sociopathic cult has zero remorse or a conscience! It’s scary having to deal with them because they’ll do anything that benefits their cause!
Anthony, you're exactly right. These last 8 years have been a master class in sociopathy and in the super-glue of male hierarchical bonds that have repeated down through the centuries. The dynamics repeat from tyrant to tyrant. I'm loving the legal process we're seeing unfold day by day...loving it! THIS seems really different. It also makes me a bit anxious because of the numbers of armed cultists with vengeance to wreak on TFG's behalf. He signals with a glower, and his wish is their command.
But I also think that our section of the population is getting more of an education, just as with the phenomenal J6 Committee hearings, and developing a greater determination to retain democracy and the rule of law. I certainly hope so!
A master class indeed! The American voter was blind sided by Trump, in that they had little to no experience with people like Trump. So he was perceived as normal to them. They had no idea how devious and callous sociopaths can be. They had no idea that they were being used. They have no idea that they are cult members. Rump normalized sociopathic behavior and fascism in his clan. The monster and his mini-me suck ups.
You are absolutely correct, Steve, and well-said! We had never witnessed a political figure at this extreme end of the psychopathology continuum in our politics. Most untrained people had no way to understand the individual symptoms they were seeing and tried to assimilate TFG's behavior into previously known categories. Bernie was the first person to, at least, call him a pathological liar. But it literally took years for intelligent newscasters to see how the totality of his disordered personality explained his individual behaviors and made him "unfit for office," and "dangerous."
Soooo , some points to consider..1-a fairly fixed portion of American citizens want an authoritarian government which says something about their make up…2-what changes in our country are seriously frightening to a portion of our population …3- some of these behaviors seem to have strong genetic/ evolutionary links…4- what might be the specific steps to be taken that would counter these citizens… at least we have a fairly clear idea of the problems and constitutional areas of vulnerability…
Yup, but a much smaller sector Michael, there’s a lot to be done yet, and we’re as much a part of it walking it to the ballot box . I’m so proud of the work disclosing , discovering, little pieces seemingly tidbits led to larger discovery. It’s rather awesome to watch.
AND...big AND...we know who ‘they ‘ are... how’s that saying go ? Know thyself ...stay aware..or something like that😉
Michael, I don’t think most of them realize that their belief in politicians’ (usually fake) promises of jobs, etc. is leading them down the garden path towards autocracy. So many of them are poorly educated and don’t understand our form of democracy, much less how any other form of government functions. I think of results of a survey I saw, noting that only 37% of adults could correctly name our three branches of government. So why do we expect these people to be aware of the right-wing push for autocracy.
We have accepted some loss of freedoms in exchange for promises of safety, such as the Patriot Act and TSA screening. I’m not sure how much safer either one of those has actually made us. But people want to feel safe and they’ll vote for whichever party promises that
Looks like you might be saying it begins in school…if so, I agree…..it seems there are ..always..tensions between , rights, duty, expectations we have of government, individual freedoms, responsibilities to the group…etc…the balance is ..at times..complicated and difficult…data,facts,trust, truth…that which can be verified are required or it just becomes someone’s dream time which then allows the dream to become a nightmare…all this is something that must be learned, relearned and constantly tested and verified…I think any form of democracy can be quite tiring…requiring constant attention and Effort…but it’s just my view…
Yes, although I think it begins before school. I’m a retired school librarian (K-8), and found that many students entered school with a sense of entitlement already, echoing their parents’ attitudes. I kept one old book in the library that outlined responsibilities of citizenship as well as rights. I was tasked with doing the federally mandated Constitution Day education on the Constitution. It was really basic 3 branches of government) in the primary grades, but with the older students I tried to cover the Bill of Rights and stress that we also had responsibilities.
When I was a child in Junior High I remember going off on my father about my rights. That resulted in a strong lecture that every right has a corresponding responsibility, which has stuck with me. Today’s kids aren’t getting that at home and all too often, also not at school.
"1-a fairly fixed portion of American citizens want an authoritarian government which says something about their make up…"
I saw a study awhile back that said that those with an authoritarian personality prefer authoritarian government. The people that I know that support trump seem to be arrogant, selfish, combative, belligerent, binary thinkers and bigoted. They seem to have a difficult time unlearning beliefs, once absorbed (The Backfire Effect). Because of their belligerence, they are easily convinced that violence is acceptable against those that they dislike.
I agree completely with these observations, Steve. It's also been noted by researchers that many children raised in "strict father families," unconsciously absorb and identify with authoritarian attitudes and values, including corporal punishment. These kinds of families are known to prioritize obedience and "good behavior," where "nurturing-parent" families prioritize self-expression and authenticity. There's also much less physical punishment in nurturing-parent families. I've also read studies that conclude that boys, especially, are prone to idealizing authoritarian values, which leads them to vote Republican and Libertarian, having contempt for values like empathy and generosity more typically embodied by Democrats
I think this is why a good proportion of MAGA folks appear to value and embody the personality and cognitive characteristics that you describe. They were raised by parents who did, and they haven't been interested in differentiating from them.
Yes, and in the case of a narcissitic parent who likes to pick winners and losers, the children become either the golden child or the scapegoat. The golden child absorbing more of the authoritarian attitude, while the scapegoated child rejects it.
They need to see/study/experience what the citizens of Russia and like countries are . There is little that comes out past the authoritarian curtain of ‘the common folk’ let alone the Rosie picture broadcast... it would put some gravity on the image !
I hope I never have to say to the MANY MANY I am surrounded by..’ well you got exactly what you wanted...so HOWS THAT GOING FOR YA?’
💙💙VOTE THEM ALL OUT💙💙
Thugshots. When oh when will his texting buddies be held to account? And I didn't know Meadows was an amateur "paleontologist" - THAT story in the NYer is a headspinner what with all the (unreported) real estate dealings.
Thugshots is good. Or, how about smugshots? These smug A-holes cruise through their lives of crime as though they're in the right. Give us a break! FAFO time, say Jack & Fani (& others).
Haha! I love smugshots AND thugshots! 😂👍
Perfect description of the ways these guys think, feel, and behave. They feel entitled to play macho games with other people's lives and suffer no consequences.
Great name: Thugshots
How about supporting voter suppression laws, including mail in voting and then using a voting address that wasn’t his address while mailing in his ballot?
That, too. And who knows what else is going to come forth…
Could be the tip of an iceberg that's not melting quick enough!
Yes, mind-blowing story.
Ruth, so interesting that you read Meadows’ torpor (sitting on the couch, scrolling through his phone, per Cassidy Hutchinson) as evidence that he had expected the violence all along. I had always thought that Hutchinson was describing an ambitious, corrupt aide de camp who was actually having a nervous breakdown — overwhelmed, had completely lost control of the phony narrative, with zero influence over his decompensating boss, and who had become catatonic & terrified, scrolling through the phone like a zombie. You make a great point about the part he actually played.
Catatonic
only following orders
Thank you Ruth for mentioning the court’s knave Comey. Still unforgivable .
My first thought after seeing Meadow's mug shot last week was that this dude is scared shitless and doing some serious drinking. I see the shock and anger now.
More and more commentators, even on MSNBC, are saying he might be successful in getting the case moved or even in having the whole thing dropped. I didn't like the judge's question. If one issue is his duty, does it mean the whole thing gets moved?
So the question being considered is just, was one part his duty, not, is their mountains of evidence of his crime?
Whatever is coming to Meadows (consequence-wise), let it/them come! However, I must remain laser-focused on the hailstorm of consequences that legalistic prognosticators have in the forecast for the former feckless freeloader of the free world, DonutRump.