That article ended on an optimistic note. I too have confidence in our democratic institutions enough to believe that authoritarianism and extremism doesn't stand a chance.
As a former Religious Liberty Secretary for my local Seventh-day Adventist Church, I used to tell my congregation that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
And that's the price every American patriot has to pay to ensure that our freedoms for us and our children will long endure.
A good interview. I take away two main things. First, throughout history humans have been extremist in their actions, tearing down cultures and building them up. It is in the nature of the species and not a sudden anomaly. Any culture which hopes to endure must take this dangerous inclination into consideration, just like the weather, ensuring that its resilience against extremism is consistently being maintained through education and modeling behavior.
Second, Janine di Giovanni remains optimistic about the United States' capacity to weather its current extremism. She knows from her experience as a war journalist the taste and smell of
cultural and national dissolution through extremism. If her gut is telling her that this country seems to her to still have some fight still left in it to resist the siren call of the Strongman, then I am encouraged, not complacent.
If we citizens make the effort to counter this rising tide of extremism and anocracy, we have a fighting chance to save our democracy.
I don't share the optimism of MS Janine di Giovanni but I do share the pessimism of Randolph. I live in Florida and was shocked to see the Nazi rally in Orlando on the weekend of Jan. 29 & 30th. Most of the articles I read indicated the police stood by and did nothing. I immediately phoned the Orange County Sheriff's office and tried to talk to Sheriff John Nina. Eventually a deputy (Jeanine Effra) called me and tried to answer my questions. She gave me the Case # (22-006960) and explained she couldn't answer any of my questions because the case file was not complete. She said that I could get a copy of the case information in 7 days (Feb. 7th) - if I drove to 25 West Colonial Drive in Orlando to pick it up. I could also phone 407-254-7000 on that date to get a copy "some other way". I intend to follow up.
Gov. Ron DeSantis refused to offer an opinion or comment on this case. However, Dem. activist Tomas Kennedy was there to witness what turned out to be a violent confrontation with a passerby. For this Nazi group (the NSM = National Socialist Movement as compared to Hitler's NSP = National Socialist Party) to feel their presence was in any way acceptable belies the mind-set of their leaders (Bert Colucci and Jeff McBride). (How are they financed and who gave them the encouragement to do this only 2 days after the Holocaust Remembrance Day?) Their antisemitic website (unless it's been taken down) proclaims that "They have no interest in equality. They want to f***ing rule us."
I am continuing to research and hope to find the political linkages that tie this group (and others in Florida) to the people in Florida and out of state who support them. Let's not forget Publix heiress Julie Fancelli of Florida who is reputed to have donated $300,000 (re Wall Street Journal investigation) to fund the Capitol "riot".)
I'm asking Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat to clear up another mystery: Can you help me understand the rabbinical saying: "Let them kill you, but don't cross the line." The reference is found on p. 119 (end of 1st paragraph) of Dr. Hannah Arendt's book "Eichmann in Jerusalem - A Report on the Banality of Evil". Thank you all for your efforts. It seems Switzerland's "Direct Democracy" may be a better solution to our "Republican" democracy than giving strongmen the opportunity to take over at will. I'd prefer 7 elected Presidents, both men and women to help decide important policies using referenda than the financially elite making decisions. Just look at what coal-baron Manchin and Sinema did to Biden's plans.
Ken Sponagle (Retired Adjunct Professor of Natural Sciences - St. Petersburg College)
The explanation I grew up with for “Let them kill you, but don’t cross the line” …. when the tyrant holds a gun to your head and says, “I will not kill you, if you point to your brother next to you” …. stay motionless and silent.
I do not minimize what we are up against. As a matter of method, I prefer to not bet against myself. So I try to find evidence to support my continued optimism that we as a nation will be able to meet the formidable challenges that threaten our democracy.
To be uncertain about an outcome is one thing. To solidly believe that nothing is possible is another. I choose to believe that the outcome is uncertain but not doomed apriori. I make no judgement about the nature of your belief. I don't know it.
A lot of us are just learning that democracy is not a spectator sport. It took the murder of Michael Brown in 2014 and Colin Kaepernick’s courageous 2016 protest, to make me wonder about anything more than the next MLB game or what Tiger was up to … so I really appreciate the reminder, John, to make the effort (or as Lucidite Jill Cody says.before each of her BeBoldAmerica podcasts - we have big things to do!!) After 64 years of thinking that memorizing baseball stats ( Willie! Mickey!! Roger!!! Hank!!!!!) was a higher brain function … there’s a lot of complacency down there !!
There is nothing to apologize for, having something that you love and enjoy. Continuing through one's life to have a realm of play is, I believe, extremely important, to one's continued mental health.
But you are correct, Randolph, that there are moments in history when we have to make an effort to widen our our scope of moral interest and to get involved in the larger issues of our time. As you point out, "democracy is not a spectator sport."
That said, we are not required to be moral heroes to be responsible citizens. In the struggle, there will be some who are heroes, but that is not the general measurement of responsible citizenship. I believe responsible citizenship requires an individual person to determine what that person can do within their skill set and health and energy, and to simply do it. And by consistently doing it, sending out a reliable signal of hope to others struggling with the crisis.
First we have the Idea of Democracy. Then we have the work of its implementation and maintenance. The smallest action of many citizens can keep the idea alive and the hope for vital and effective democracy operating in our everyday life.
We cannot know with certainty the full effect of our efforts in the course of things. But we do know with absolute certainty what the effect of efforts will be if we do nothing. Nothing.
And so we encourage one another to stay in the struggle, to know we are not alone in this struggle, and to know that we are not helpless victims in this struggle.
Yes, somewhat reassuring to read JDG’s assertion (after 30 years of reporting on these transitional national moments) that “our institutions are strong enough to suppress a civil war.” Possibly a second interview is in order, to find out what she bases her optimism on … especially in light of how one, very venerable institution … the US Senate … was simply bribed (by the financiers of those fomenting civil war) into not being strong enough to pass voting rights and infrastructure repair legislation.
Do you think that Emergency Planning at this time is starting to see some of the hard outlines of what we are up against in terms of factionalism and the possibility of further insurrections? Your background certainly puts you in a good position to have an opinion on this.
Sorry to bother you. I tried to locate your article in the June 30, 2008, edition of The Nation, but I could not find it listed in the table of contents. Do you happen to have a quick link to it that you could send me. I'm eager to read it.
Would it be fair to say that persons responsible for paying attention to this submerged portion of dangerous iceberg were simply dismissive of warnings like those you gave in 2008. And if so, why do you think they felt safe to dismiss those warnings?
Good to hear from you Randolph. We're all struggling to get through this as best we can. Keep the Faith.
Interesting and informative interview. Thank you!
That article ended on an optimistic note. I too have confidence in our democratic institutions enough to believe that authoritarianism and extremism doesn't stand a chance.
As a former Religious Liberty Secretary for my local Seventh-day Adventist Church, I used to tell my congregation that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
And that's the price every American patriot has to pay to ensure that our freedoms for us and our children will long endure.
I share Janine's cautious optimism.
A good interview. I take away two main things. First, throughout history humans have been extremist in their actions, tearing down cultures and building them up. It is in the nature of the species and not a sudden anomaly. Any culture which hopes to endure must take this dangerous inclination into consideration, just like the weather, ensuring that its resilience against extremism is consistently being maintained through education and modeling behavior.
Second, Janine di Giovanni remains optimistic about the United States' capacity to weather its current extremism. She knows from her experience as a war journalist the taste and smell of
cultural and national dissolution through extremism. If her gut is telling her that this country seems to her to still have some fight still left in it to resist the siren call of the Strongman, then I am encouraged, not complacent.
If we citizens make the effort to counter this rising tide of extremism and anocracy, we have a fighting chance to save our democracy.
So I guess we had better make the effort.
I don't share the optimism of MS Janine di Giovanni but I do share the pessimism of Randolph. I live in Florida and was shocked to see the Nazi rally in Orlando on the weekend of Jan. 29 & 30th. Most of the articles I read indicated the police stood by and did nothing. I immediately phoned the Orange County Sheriff's office and tried to talk to Sheriff John Nina. Eventually a deputy (Jeanine Effra) called me and tried to answer my questions. She gave me the Case # (22-006960) and explained she couldn't answer any of my questions because the case file was not complete. She said that I could get a copy of the case information in 7 days (Feb. 7th) - if I drove to 25 West Colonial Drive in Orlando to pick it up. I could also phone 407-254-7000 on that date to get a copy "some other way". I intend to follow up.
Gov. Ron DeSantis refused to offer an opinion or comment on this case. However, Dem. activist Tomas Kennedy was there to witness what turned out to be a violent confrontation with a passerby. For this Nazi group (the NSM = National Socialist Movement as compared to Hitler's NSP = National Socialist Party) to feel their presence was in any way acceptable belies the mind-set of their leaders (Bert Colucci and Jeff McBride). (How are they financed and who gave them the encouragement to do this only 2 days after the Holocaust Remembrance Day?) Their antisemitic website (unless it's been taken down) proclaims that "They have no interest in equality. They want to f***ing rule us."
I am continuing to research and hope to find the political linkages that tie this group (and others in Florida) to the people in Florida and out of state who support them. Let's not forget Publix heiress Julie Fancelli of Florida who is reputed to have donated $300,000 (re Wall Street Journal investigation) to fund the Capitol "riot".)
I'm asking Dr. Ruth Ben-Ghiat to clear up another mystery: Can you help me understand the rabbinical saying: "Let them kill you, but don't cross the line." The reference is found on p. 119 (end of 1st paragraph) of Dr. Hannah Arendt's book "Eichmann in Jerusalem - A Report on the Banality of Evil". Thank you all for your efforts. It seems Switzerland's "Direct Democracy" may be a better solution to our "Republican" democracy than giving strongmen the opportunity to take over at will. I'd prefer 7 elected Presidents, both men and women to help decide important policies using referenda than the financially elite making decisions. Just look at what coal-baron Manchin and Sinema did to Biden's plans.
Ken Sponagle (Retired Adjunct Professor of Natural Sciences - St. Petersburg College)
I applaud you for your persistence in working to get the case information. The mere process of questions and persistent neutral followup is of value.
The explanation I grew up with for “Let them kill you, but don’t cross the line” …. when the tyrant holds a gun to your head and says, “I will not kill you, if you point to your brother next to you” …. stay motionless and silent.
And my understanding of Randolph is that one tries not to gain survival at the expense of other innocent persons' survival.
Ken,
I do not minimize what we are up against. As a matter of method, I prefer to not bet against myself. So I try to find evidence to support my continued optimism that we as a nation will be able to meet the formidable challenges that threaten our democracy.
To be uncertain about an outcome is one thing. To solidly believe that nothing is possible is another. I choose to believe that the outcome is uncertain but not doomed apriori. I make no judgement about the nature of your belief. I don't know it.
I laud you for your efforts.
John, Ph. D. (philosophy)
A lot of us are just learning that democracy is not a spectator sport. It took the murder of Michael Brown in 2014 and Colin Kaepernick’s courageous 2016 protest, to make me wonder about anything more than the next MLB game or what Tiger was up to … so I really appreciate the reminder, John, to make the effort (or as Lucidite Jill Cody says.before each of her BeBoldAmerica podcasts - we have big things to do!!) After 64 years of thinking that memorizing baseball stats ( Willie! Mickey!! Roger!!! Hank!!!!!) was a higher brain function … there’s a lot of complacency down there !!
There is nothing to apologize for, having something that you love and enjoy. Continuing through one's life to have a realm of play is, I believe, extremely important, to one's continued mental health.
But you are correct, Randolph, that there are moments in history when we have to make an effort to widen our our scope of moral interest and to get involved in the larger issues of our time. As you point out, "democracy is not a spectator sport."
That said, we are not required to be moral heroes to be responsible citizens. In the struggle, there will be some who are heroes, but that is not the general measurement of responsible citizenship. I believe responsible citizenship requires an individual person to determine what that person can do within their skill set and health and energy, and to simply do it. And by consistently doing it, sending out a reliable signal of hope to others struggling with the crisis.
First we have the Idea of Democracy. Then we have the work of its implementation and maintenance. The smallest action of many citizens can keep the idea alive and the hope for vital and effective democracy operating in our everyday life.
We cannot know with certainty the full effect of our efforts in the course of things. But we do know with absolute certainty what the effect of efforts will be if we do nothing. Nothing.
And so we encourage one another to stay in the struggle, to know we are not alone in this struggle, and to know that we are not helpless victims in this struggle.
Keep the faith.
Best,
John
Very encouraging and helpful words … especially “we don’t have to be moral heroes to be responsible citizens” … thanks so very much, John
Excellent. Thank you. 👏👏
I admire her optimism that our institutions are strong and if we remain vigilant democracy can still prevail.
Yes, somewhat reassuring to read JDG’s assertion (after 30 years of reporting on these transitional national moments) that “our institutions are strong enough to suppress a civil war.” Possibly a second interview is in order, to find out what she bases her optimism on … especially in light of how one, very venerable institution … the US Senate … was simply bribed (by the financiers of those fomenting civil war) into not being strong enough to pass voting rights and infrastructure repair legislation.
Marv,
Do you think that Emergency Planning at this time is starting to see some of the hard outlines of what we are up against in terms of factionalism and the possibility of further insurrections? Your background certainly puts you in a good position to have an opinion on this.
John
Marv,
Sorry to bother you. I tried to locate your article in the June 30, 2008, edition of The Nation, but I could not find it listed in the table of contents. Do you happen to have a quick link to it that you could send me. I'm eager to read it.
Thanks.
John
Marv,
Would it be fair to say that persons responsible for paying attention to this submerged portion of dangerous iceberg were simply dismissive of warnings like those you gave in 2008. And if so, why do you think they felt safe to dismiss those warnings?
Marv, I'd like to hear what advice you'd offer for the people who are characterized on the Netflix blockbuster called "Don't Look Up!".
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
What in the socio-political context has to change do you think?
Thanks for the introduction, Marv. We are blessed to have your perspective!!