An essay about two types of democracy destroyers. One kills the frog in public and leaves its body on the street as an example, the other boils it slowly and conceals its remains
Great education on two types of democracy destroyers. I never liked Pence (nor Trump, of course) but Pence, I felt was sneaky. I researched what he'd done in his state of Indiana - it was actually horrific. Had nothing to do with democracy and definitely rose religion to rule all his "decisions." These two both did their own separate damage on our democracy. I'll be keeping an eye on both.
Fellow Americans, patriots, bipartisan emerged. Dan Quayle's finest moment in guiding Pence to stay on the good path. Thank you VP Quayle, many kudos. Presidential medal of honor perhaps candidate, under pressure, out of public service, remembers his Oath and guides a current VP. An elder statesman, his finest hour.
Pence’s actions (& those of his administration) while in IN told anyone paying attention what kind of person and politician he was. Nothing has changed except his ambitions.
One very important point often not mentioned about Pence is that he is a Pentecostal who fervently believes in The End Times. He has spoken of his placement in politics as God’s plan to help bring about said End Times. (Anyone who doesn’t know what The End Times are should read The Book of Revelations. It’s in the Bible. Or sit through a few sermons in a Pentecostal church.)
For anyone wondering where my view of the Pentecostal religion and their main goals comes from - I was raised in that religion. Five services a week my entire childhood. Had to read the Bible cover to cover multiple times. We had weeks long revivals every summer that focused solely on the Second Coming of Jesus and the prayed for “glorious End Times”.
It’s basically a hate and fear based religious cult.
During the pandemic I received multiple handwritten letters from members of 2 such local churches that actually praised the arrival of Covid because it meant the End Times were near. They praised trump as God’s instrument to bring it about. Many people dismiss these beliefs as poppycock but I guarantee you they believe these things and will do whatever they can to bring them about - that includes Pence.
The End Times panic is not unique to the Pentecostals…. many mainstream evangelical fundamentalist Christian churches, like the Missouri synod Lutheran church I grew up in, saturated my brain in the vanity of any human effort to advance human community, efforts that we generally called progressive activism in our country (but just normal community service ethic outside US) … it has taken decades to learn to be kind to all, and the incredible value in doing so. Embracing the End Times lunacy is social cover for justifying all manner of hatred and violence to those not in your tribe
Thanks for your response Randolph. You are correct. The End Times belief is not unique to the Pentecostal religion. I spoke of it because its the one I know. I agree - religion is used to justify so much hatred, violence and exclusion. Wars are fought in the name of various gods and for religion. People are manipulated, controlled, gaslite and ostracized due to religion. Children beaten and worse under the teachings of religion. It’s an ugly business.
Pence is a coward. He will never be President despite delusions he may have that God wants him to be President. He is morally damaged and complicit in Trump's destructive reign of chaos and authoritarian rule. As Dante said the "Hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality" or worse as in this case he maintained complicity and loyal servitude to a devil and destroyer of American democracy. He may try and justify it by pointing to Trump's three radical right wing extremest judges he appointed to the Supreme court with McConnell's help. But history will record that Pence is not a Patriot or statesman no matter how hard he tried to pretend otherwise.
Pence is worse than a coward. He is a fanatic who believes God has chosen him to be in the White House and in doing so, to bring about The End Times.
It’s best to not believe or assume that he will never get to the WH. Trump is a coward and he was easily put there. Either one of them could end up there in 2024. Never underestimate how powerful hatred, fear and religious fervor can be and trump, pence and, well, any current member of the Republican Fascist Party are quite willing to use any or all of those three motivators to get what they want.
Agree. While you never say never, I believe Pence has no future in Republican Presidential politics for the foreseeable future as someone who is actually viable. Trump has vilified and blamed him to the point where his loyal flowers wanted to 'hang Mike Pence'. Pence has only single digit support within the Republican party.
Thanks. It's still early, but I'm looking at the odds. I doubt Pence. DeSantis is checking the boxes, he's playing very well to the C Nationalists and, he's Catholic. We all know, CNP, Opus Dei, Dominionists, Federalist Society, powerful block. As well, The Family will have a say. Pence is seen as a loser by this group and Cruz continues with his total needless mistakes........... I think Tom Cotton could be one to watch. He's the right age, has served both House and Senate, decorated war Veteran as a Captain, well educated, staunch Republican, would carry the Southern vote (from Arkansas). Interestingly, he is a Methodist, however, he is both fiscal and socially conservative. He has some weight, if he runs.............. Personally, I think he would match the frog simmering scenario to a T. My guess is, the reprieve is over and the next President will be the Authoritarian we are watching for. We have written about this Ruth, and Cotton fills the bill for exactly the reasons you just stated. Quiet and sneaky.
I know some Dominionist Christians (in-laws) and they are a strange bunch. They are massively closed minded and bigoted. They absolutely hate the non-believer and think they have some sort of sickness. But it's pure projection. The Dominionists are not fact based but seem to have what is known as FPP ( fantasy prone personality). Emotions dominate their truth, not facts. They live in a post-truth reality..... so do fascists.
They freely express their yearning for a Christian theocracy here. There is no thought or care about what the Constitution says. They answer to a higher power than a mere Constitution. Pence seems to be a part of this crowd. They are not fans of democracy.
Hey, I agree, Pence and Mother are one of them. Still, many see Pence as letting Trump down and his poll numbers are in the toilet. Cotton would cross many boundaries that neither Pence or DeSantis could. Have I mentioned, The Corruption of Reality, Shumaker. It is an excellent read. Also Leonard Doob, he digests Goebbels 19 principles of propaganda. I'm reading Edward Bernays, Propaganda, at present. A contemporary of Goebbels, only from the States. I got one coming tomorrow, "Beyond Belief: How Pentecostal Christianity is taking over the World", Elle Hardy. Can't wait to read that one.............. Still, our next Fuhrer could come from a number of outlets, plenty of crazies out there. I still stay, we are one major US catastrophe away from our demise............. "Christian Theocracy", there's a contradiction for ya. Be well, watch this heat.
I would be interested to know Pence's personal history as to how he became so grievance based, more carefully hidden than Trump's grievances. It always seems to spring from grievances and then the greed to overcome those personal injustices( in their mind) that they have had to endure. He is naturally more intelligent, better educated formally, a spotless family man, dresses appropriately, more socially acceptable because of his acceptable poise. Sounds like I am describing the Florida governor.
Dominionist Christians like Pence are all grievance based, because they feel that Christianity is under siege. It's the same victimized bully syndrome seen in fascism.
I understand what you are saying.. As a Christian woman, Christianity is meant to be free-flowing. There is no siege to worry over. The Gospel is Jesus example of how to spread the good news. There is no power component. These types are way off track.
"We the people are the masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." --Abraham Lincoln
Me, my theory is that the space between what can be called and traditional Republicans and Trump Republicans is relatively narrow. Trump is much, much more about getting the base inspired and motivated to vote; policy, not so much. Some of the worst things the GOP has done to the nation has come via SCOTUS decisions which, other than the three justices that were nominated by him, Trump had no influence on. That is, without Trump involved in any way, we got Citizens United, Shelby County, Dobbs and the OSHA and EPA decisions among others. SCOTUS, in other words, reflects the party, not Trump.
So, you know, I don’t know that Pence is better than Trump in any way that matters. Or let me qualify that: The GOP has been engaged in turning the nation into an anti-democratic state; Trump has been a huge help moving in that direction. That said, nothing before him was preventing that, only, at best, slowing it. Too, a case can be made that we’ve essentially been in that anti-democratic state for years given how beholden both parties are to common special interests and how little either party cares about the wellbeing of the people. (To be clear:The GOP just screws the little people; the Dems, when pressured or otherwise motivated, gift us with crumbs like borderline inept Covid responses and that awful gun control law.)
Which gets to another thing: If one supports small government/low taxes and one party supports that and that party is acting to lock their grip on power so that they can provide that, well, the attraction of an anti-democratic state is pretty obvious. If one can get what one wants forever by giving up on democracy, why not? In other words, that’s how you get a permanent victory. (A great question is when, on the national level, did we really benefit from democracy. Not going to go into it here but the tl;dr, answer maybe in the 1970s, likelier the mid-60s.)
And back to Pence. Besides being as right wing and hateful as Trump, not to mention a grifter himself, albeit on a tiny fraction of Crooked Donnie’s scale, I don’t see his refusing to be driven away from the Capitol on 1/6 as particularly noble or whatever, but more an understanding after over four-odd years close to Trump that he there was little actual risk to him, that both Trump as well as the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers weren’t really threats to him but, as to him, pretty much just performative.
All that said, suffice to say there’s nothing redeeming about or to the GOP, but, you know, our opposition party is loathe to oppose them with proportionate efforts.
Devastatingly succinct. I can’t understand why this Icarus Pence continues to believe he can soar toward that “sun,” but the vast collateral damage the bureaucratic-destroyer inflicts is more scary to me than the bully with his stick.
Being from KS and coming through the first battle victory last night, I already worry that the morning’s joy will obscure the ongoing vigilance and work we must sustain for the long-term campaign to defend our rights.
Tax deductions for the unborn make me fear the number of unwanted children that this overall malarkey will produce. Unwanted children spurns the development of unhealthy industries & the twisted use of existing entities; not to mention the cost of human pain.
A very clear-eyed and succinct description of Trump and Pence, two exceedingly dangerous destroyers of democracy. Thank you, again, Ms Ben-Ghiat, for so expertly detailing the issues before us.
Now we know what's on those tapes everyone's been erasing: the former guy threatening to kill his VP. What could be more incriminating? As always, thanks for your essay. I winced when I saw it was about the Donald again but appreciate the urgency.
And just think: Pence could bury his former boss once and for all by testifying and telling all. He could be the Hero of the Year. Rid the country of the menace called Donald. But he won't.
Thank you for your essay. Speaking and writing truth to power, repeatedly and relentlessly is necessary to turn the tide that has been rising against American democracy. Please, keep up the good work.
Great education on two types of democracy destroyers. I never liked Pence (nor Trump, of course) but Pence, I felt was sneaky. I researched what he'd done in his state of Indiana - it was actually horrific. Had nothing to do with democracy and definitely rose religion to rule all his "decisions." These two both did their own separate damage on our democracy. I'll be keeping an eye on both.
Fellow Americans, patriots, bipartisan emerged. Dan Quayle's finest moment in guiding Pence to stay on the good path. Thank you VP Quayle, many kudos. Presidential medal of honor perhaps candidate, under pressure, out of public service, remembers his Oath and guides a current VP. An elder statesman, his finest hour.
Others, exhausted but clapping, in the photo of Mike Pence, he looks more a hostage, not reflecting the triumph of moment.
I liked, Ruth, how you described Pence in detail. A nowhere man. A cardboard cut out.
Pence’s actions (& those of his administration) while in IN told anyone paying attention what kind of person and politician he was. Nothing has changed except his ambitions.
One very important point often not mentioned about Pence is that he is a Pentecostal who fervently believes in The End Times. He has spoken of his placement in politics as God’s plan to help bring about said End Times. (Anyone who doesn’t know what The End Times are should read The Book of Revelations. It’s in the Bible. Or sit through a few sermons in a Pentecostal church.)
For anyone wondering where my view of the Pentecostal religion and their main goals comes from - I was raised in that religion. Five services a week my entire childhood. Had to read the Bible cover to cover multiple times. We had weeks long revivals every summer that focused solely on the Second Coming of Jesus and the prayed for “glorious End Times”.
It’s basically a hate and fear based religious cult.
During the pandemic I received multiple handwritten letters from members of 2 such local churches that actually praised the arrival of Covid because it meant the End Times were near. They praised trump as God’s instrument to bring it about. Many people dismiss these beliefs as poppycock but I guarantee you they believe these things and will do whatever they can to bring them about - that includes Pence.
The End Times panic is not unique to the Pentecostals…. many mainstream evangelical fundamentalist Christian churches, like the Missouri synod Lutheran church I grew up in, saturated my brain in the vanity of any human effort to advance human community, efforts that we generally called progressive activism in our country (but just normal community service ethic outside US) … it has taken decades to learn to be kind to all, and the incredible value in doing so. Embracing the End Times lunacy is social cover for justifying all manner of hatred and violence to those not in your tribe
Thanks for your response Randolph. You are correct. The End Times belief is not unique to the Pentecostal religion. I spoke of it because its the one I know. I agree - religion is used to justify so much hatred, violence and exclusion. Wars are fought in the name of various gods and for religion. People are manipulated, controlled, gaslite and ostracized due to religion. Children beaten and worse under the teachings of religion. It’s an ugly business.
Thank you so much for the sound/voiced version. It's a wonderful added feature, particularly since it's voiced by you, Ruth!
Pence is a coward. He will never be President despite delusions he may have that God wants him to be President. He is morally damaged and complicit in Trump's destructive reign of chaos and authoritarian rule. As Dante said the "Hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality" or worse as in this case he maintained complicity and loyal servitude to a devil and destroyer of American democracy. He may try and justify it by pointing to Trump's three radical right wing extremest judges he appointed to the Supreme court with McConnell's help. But history will record that Pence is not a Patriot or statesman no matter how hard he tried to pretend otherwise.
Pence is worse than a coward. He is a fanatic who believes God has chosen him to be in the White House and in doing so, to bring about The End Times.
It’s best to not believe or assume that he will never get to the WH. Trump is a coward and he was easily put there. Either one of them could end up there in 2024. Never underestimate how powerful hatred, fear and religious fervor can be and trump, pence and, well, any current member of the Republican Fascist Party are quite willing to use any or all of those three motivators to get what they want.
Agree. While you never say never, I believe Pence has no future in Republican Presidential politics for the foreseeable future as someone who is actually viable. Trump has vilified and blamed him to the point where his loyal flowers wanted to 'hang Mike Pence'. Pence has only single digit support within the Republican party.
Neutrality, is picking a side, just passively. They are just as guilty.
Yes and just like Rush the Canadian rock group says in the song "Freewill" "if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice". Neil Peart
In Pence's case, it's an easy transition from Christo-fascism to political fascism.
Not much difference...
Aren’t you suspect of any man who buries his wife at his golf course for tax purposes?
Thanks. It's still early, but I'm looking at the odds. I doubt Pence. DeSantis is checking the boxes, he's playing very well to the C Nationalists and, he's Catholic. We all know, CNP, Opus Dei, Dominionists, Federalist Society, powerful block. As well, The Family will have a say. Pence is seen as a loser by this group and Cruz continues with his total needless mistakes........... I think Tom Cotton could be one to watch. He's the right age, has served both House and Senate, decorated war Veteran as a Captain, well educated, staunch Republican, would carry the Southern vote (from Arkansas). Interestingly, he is a Methodist, however, he is both fiscal and socially conservative. He has some weight, if he runs.............. Personally, I think he would match the frog simmering scenario to a T. My guess is, the reprieve is over and the next President will be the Authoritarian we are watching for. We have written about this Ruth, and Cotton fills the bill for exactly the reasons you just stated. Quiet and sneaky.
I know some Dominionist Christians (in-laws) and they are a strange bunch. They are massively closed minded and bigoted. They absolutely hate the non-believer and think they have some sort of sickness. But it's pure projection. The Dominionists are not fact based but seem to have what is known as FPP ( fantasy prone personality). Emotions dominate their truth, not facts. They live in a post-truth reality..... so do fascists.
They freely express their yearning for a Christian theocracy here. There is no thought or care about what the Constitution says. They answer to a higher power than a mere Constitution. Pence seems to be a part of this crowd. They are not fans of democracy.
Hey, I agree, Pence and Mother are one of them. Still, many see Pence as letting Trump down and his poll numbers are in the toilet. Cotton would cross many boundaries that neither Pence or DeSantis could. Have I mentioned, The Corruption of Reality, Shumaker. It is an excellent read. Also Leonard Doob, he digests Goebbels 19 principles of propaganda. I'm reading Edward Bernays, Propaganda, at present. A contemporary of Goebbels, only from the States. I got one coming tomorrow, "Beyond Belief: How Pentecostal Christianity is taking over the World", Elle Hardy. Can't wait to read that one.............. Still, our next Fuhrer could come from a number of outlets, plenty of crazies out there. I still stay, we are one major US catastrophe away from our demise............. "Christian Theocracy", there's a contradiction for ya. Be well, watch this heat.
I would be interested to know Pence's personal history as to how he became so grievance based, more carefully hidden than Trump's grievances. It always seems to spring from grievances and then the greed to overcome those personal injustices( in their mind) that they have had to endure. He is naturally more intelligent, better educated formally, a spotless family man, dresses appropriately, more socially acceptable because of his acceptable poise. Sounds like I am describing the Florida governor.
I disagree about the “more intelligent” part. He knows how to package himself which includes speeches.
Dominionist Christians like Pence are all grievance based, because they feel that Christianity is under siege. It's the same victimized bully syndrome seen in fascism.
Exactly!
I understand what you are saying.. As a Christian woman, Christianity is meant to be free-flowing. There is no siege to worry over. The Gospel is Jesus example of how to spread the good news. There is no power component. These types are way off track.
"We the people are the masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." --Abraham Lincoln
Separation of church and state.
A few hot takes and stuff.
Me, my theory is that the space between what can be called and traditional Republicans and Trump Republicans is relatively narrow. Trump is much, much more about getting the base inspired and motivated to vote; policy, not so much. Some of the worst things the GOP has done to the nation has come via SCOTUS decisions which, other than the three justices that were nominated by him, Trump had no influence on. That is, without Trump involved in any way, we got Citizens United, Shelby County, Dobbs and the OSHA and EPA decisions among others. SCOTUS, in other words, reflects the party, not Trump.
So, you know, I don’t know that Pence is better than Trump in any way that matters. Or let me qualify that: The GOP has been engaged in turning the nation into an anti-democratic state; Trump has been a huge help moving in that direction. That said, nothing before him was preventing that, only, at best, slowing it. Too, a case can be made that we’ve essentially been in that anti-democratic state for years given how beholden both parties are to common special interests and how little either party cares about the wellbeing of the people. (To be clear:The GOP just screws the little people; the Dems, when pressured or otherwise motivated, gift us with crumbs like borderline inept Covid responses and that awful gun control law.)
Which gets to another thing: If one supports small government/low taxes and one party supports that and that party is acting to lock their grip on power so that they can provide that, well, the attraction of an anti-democratic state is pretty obvious. If one can get what one wants forever by giving up on democracy, why not? In other words, that’s how you get a permanent victory. (A great question is when, on the national level, did we really benefit from democracy. Not going to go into it here but the tl;dr, answer maybe in the 1970s, likelier the mid-60s.)
And back to Pence. Besides being as right wing and hateful as Trump, not to mention a grifter himself, albeit on a tiny fraction of Crooked Donnie’s scale, I don’t see his refusing to be driven away from the Capitol on 1/6 as particularly noble or whatever, but more an understanding after over four-odd years close to Trump that he there was little actual risk to him, that both Trump as well as the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers weren’t really threats to him but, as to him, pretty much just performative.
All that said, suffice to say there’s nothing redeeming about or to the GOP, but, you know, our opposition party is loathe to oppose them with proportionate efforts.
Devastatingly succinct. I can’t understand why this Icarus Pence continues to believe he can soar toward that “sun,” but the vast collateral damage the bureaucratic-destroyer inflicts is more scary to me than the bully with his stick.
Being from KS and coming through the first battle victory last night, I already worry that the morning’s joy will obscure the ongoing vigilance and work we must sustain for the long-term campaign to defend our rights.
He believes it because he believes God wants him there - in the White House.
We can celebrate Kansas …. and be concerned about the Trojan horse that GA voters let in, by allowing tax deductions for the unborn
Tax deductions for the unborn make me fear the number of unwanted children that this overall malarkey will produce. Unwanted children spurns the development of unhealthy industries & the twisted use of existing entities; not to mention the cost of human pain.
A very clear-eyed and succinct description of Trump and Pence, two exceedingly dangerous destroyers of democracy. Thank you, again, Ms Ben-Ghiat, for so expertly detailing the issues before us.
Now we know what's on those tapes everyone's been erasing: the former guy threatening to kill his VP. What could be more incriminating? As always, thanks for your essay. I winced when I saw it was about the Donald again but appreciate the urgency.
And just think: Pence could bury his former boss once and for all by testifying and telling all. He could be the Hero of the Year. Rid the country of the menace called Donald. But he won't.
Thank you for your essay. Speaking and writing truth to power, repeatedly and relentlessly is necessary to turn the tide that has been rising against American democracy. Please, keep up the good work.