Thank you Ruth for this focus. While we are intelligent and knowledgeable, may kindness guide the way.
I was encouraged my local bank printing kindness quotes at the tellers stations, with extras to give away. The fabric shop had product giveaways promoting niceness and kindness.
Somedays it's all we've got. Kindness to me is the antidote to corruption.
He will struggle to get through to those that follow and like Putin.
Likely he has little chance to. The media is controled by Putin. The media not controlled by Putin is not where Putin's followers will go. They seek confirmation bias and not knowledge.
Similar to those in the US. Fox viewers do not seek out knowledge. Any knowledge that conflicts with what they were told they get angry and keep their false belief. When they didn't like Fox saying Biden won they moved to another network.
Centuries after the Enlightenment religious followers don't seek out knowledge. It's the original form of propaganda mixed with authoritarianism.
The Russian Church is backing Putin. Similar to those that back Trump.
So why does propaganda work?
Illusory Truth Effect. Lie and people believe it. Even later when proven false most will continue to do so.
It's due to the human need to trust other humans. Otherwise we would not cooperate like we do. For humanity it has worked. Not so much many times for individual humans.
Cognitive dissonance. These Russians want to beleive Putin. They want to think he is doing some awesome thing for the Ukranians and for Russia.
Nationalism also plays a role. It's a tribal response. One's evil leader is still better than the leaders of the competition.
The human mind is still rather primitve. It's easily manipulated. For many their mind is still attracted to following an alpha. An authoritarian fits the bill. They don't have a choice.
It works on those that are more tribal, are more attracted to authoritarians, are attracked to symbols and rituals, have some false sense of the past as being better than change for the better today.
What will change Russia and end Putin's reign? When an alpha fails his tribe and they start to suffer they can rise up to replace them with another alpha. Easier when tribes were 100 or less. Not so easy when the tribal leader has access to nukes, a huge military under his control and is ruthless and can control all aspects of the information the people receive.
How far will Putin go? How far can he? North Korea is the far end of authoritarian. China is authoritarian but practical. They may want Taiwan but if they invaded the same would happen. The US would stop trading with them.
Sun Tsu said war has to be profitbale. Putin is costing Russia and Russians a lot of money. He might not care. Someone there eventually will care enough to change things.
A reasonable question: why does propaganda work? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, Cog Sci, but you seem to be implying that the need to trust others is a weakness …. and misses an important nuance that I think, Ruth here, and Stephen Hassan promotes in his work…. it’s not the need that is the problem…. it’s how we satisfy the need. It’s not the need to eat that is the problem … it’s what we eat. Putin’s at the ugly end of the influence continuum, And it’s a beautiful and hopeful thing when someone like A S recognizes that others’ trust in him can be used to influence for good. So perhaps, it’s helpful to also ask: why does truthful communication work? One result of asking both, is a new opportunity to de-program those propagandized: the need Putin exploits, can also be nourished, as A S demonstrated. Apply this to all the other reasons you give for why propaganda works, see the legitimate need that Putin is exploiting, and you see the the opportunity at the other and good end of the influence continuum
Well I wrote a longer and better post and lost it. So the second effort was not my best.
I will try to explain it better.
Propaganda is used to influence others. By definition it is misleading and lies. It's purposeful.
Those doing it know exactly what they are doing. The public has no idea.
The trust built into the human mind is how propaganda is able to exploit the masses for the benefit of the liars and their agenda.
Why it's so easy is because of how the human mind works.
Illusory truth effect.
Lies once believed are not easy to overcome. Near impossible for many.
Then cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias kick in.
Propaganda uses fear and then scapegoats others. It appeals to our tribal mind. Those Huns. Those Jews. Those Communist Liberals. Those atheists. Those Nazi Ukranians.
They are going to.....add whatever false claim.
All lies but people believe them.
Propaganda is never a good thing.
The human inability to discern fact from fiction is not a good thing.
The opposite of propaganda is the truth.
Why does what you call truthful communication work? Not sure it works. Not everyone is influenced by the lies and the liars. Yet facts and the truth are no match for lies and the fear they instill.
Vaccines save lives. Propaganda and lies influence many to not vaccinate. It's an irrational fear and then exploited by others for political gain.
It's no small group that such lies work on. It's the majority of the human race.
Arnold's attempt to influence Russians is appealing to you. The people that follow Putin will not listen to Arnold.
What Arendt warned everyone about is when humans can no longer tell truth from lies. When that trust is totally gone. Trump made that his main goal. Now facts are not facts.
Not sure that truthful communication works, either, CogSci. But I do know (both from studying history and from over 40 years creating and believing in lies) that propaganda that creates an other to de-value and ultimately kill, promotes division, violence, abuse of power … death. Even from a Darwinian perspective, I seem to be left with employing the kind, empathic, respectful, truthful communication that A S and Ruth demonstrate, in the belief (and that’s pretty much all I have) that creating healthy connections is our best chance, for the most, for life. Trust in that latter belief, exists, perhaps, in a minority, but is certainly not totally gone
I wish we could find a way to defeat the lies. I am of course not a wishful thinker. I liked what Arnold said. I am just saying that Russisns that support Putin won't hear the message. If it gets through it only will be heard by those that like it. Putin supporters are watching other media or no media at all.
Arnold's message is more for us and those that want the invasion over.
CNN put on Putin's propaganda minister last night. It was stupid. He got his message across. That nukes are possible. It will further put fear into the West and will temper the response to his aggression.
CNN was played. Or they let ratings matter more than ending the invasion? Wars are great for TV and profits.
I'm an atheist. I know religions are not true. I can not change the human mind. It's developed over millions of years. We can't change humans to think better. That will take generations. We can change who controls the information that is put into the primitive human mind. It was controlled by first those in power. Then those that controlled the press. Then radio, TV and now the internet.
Sadly where social media should offer humans access to more information and facts it actually has been used for the opposite.
The lies doninate.
There are Russians all over social media.
They are there to divide Americans.
It can be a simple post blaming Biden for something they are causing. Like higher gas prices.
Because humans are not critical thinkers.
Some are. Don't mistake your ability to think critically to be the same for all or most. It is a minority.
Of course a way to reach humans that were lied to and are essentially brainwashed would be a great discovery.
Even a way to reach some. Or a better way to reach some.
So far, it appears our science of communication is still in its infancy … we are still at the level of throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks to combat lies … I’m hopeful the same genius that Putin utilizes to pervert communication, can be used to communicate Truth. Thanks, CogSci, for all the provocative insights here
Schwarzenegger's message also has an emotional effect on those of us who oppose this war. It is so unfortunate that the only way to dissuade Putin the instigator from continuing this horror show is through the suffering of the Russian people. He has effectively used his own citizens as a human shield. I do wish there was another way.
It is as if Putin is saying to his people, "This is a case of mind over matter. I don't mind and you don't matter." Sadly, this is not a good time to be Russian.
More like, what's yours is mine and you don't matter. Navalny just got 9 years for a BS charge. His lawyers were then arrested for speaking out. If the Russian people want to be a part of the world, they know what to do. It wouldn't be the first time.........."The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Jefferson
I watched the vid when it was first released and immediately reacted to the power of the delivery and the message. Schwarzenegger uses truth and empathy as well as a casual, nonthreatening style in a very effective manner. This is a chat with a friend, someone you worry and care about, someone who has lost their way through no fault of their own. It's a plea to come home, a plea to come back to the family of men and women who seek peace and mutual respect in the world.
I agree this manner of outreach may serve Americans in touching base with family and friends, those who have succumbed to far-right propaganda. So easy to become frustrated and angry with little to show for our efforts beyond more anger and frustration.
Been there, done that.
Kudos to Schwarzenegger for showing us a different way. Well done!
Yes, Peg… been there, done that (wrong, too) … and very grateful for the public examples from Arnold and Ruth (and Rebecca Solnit comes to mind in her HOPE IN THE DARK) …. succeeding to speak truth simply and casually, and giving it a chance to be heard
Ruth, I love your idea of making A.S. our ambassador to Russia. He is such an effective communicator and towering persona like no other and especially to the Russian people! Send in the Terminator. He also understands implicitly what Mark Twain said "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." There is always dissonance and and pride involved when people are confronted and challenged with having bought into a propagandist belief system based on lies.
Thanks, Ruth, for your helpful insights on Arnold’s empathic (and hopefully, effective) talk to the Russians …. yes… certainly lessons for us all, as we struggle, and frequently fail, to be as profoundly kind as Arnold was, in making the hard truth, bearable … really appreciate your practical reminders as we learn to embrace, rather than push away, those who are propagandized
We must try, everything possible. That said, propaganda perpetuates through generations. We are looking at roughly 100 years of selective psychological and emotional breeding. That doesn't go away. I remember reading about Raisa Gorbachev, quite an activist liberal for Russia, saying it was psychological insanity to go against the prevailing view. Insanity, because it would get one killed, or sentenced, leading to death. She wasn't wrong. Ivan Pavlov was a Russian. So was Ivan Ilyin, Putin knows both very well. He knows how to make Russians and his enemies "salivate." We need to, lead with a carrot, verify and carry a big stick. "Russia is nothing but the Mafia, with a gas station". John McCain. We must try.
I'm sharing this on my, tiny, Twitter account. Americans very much need to think about these skills to combat propaganda here too, if democracy is to be saved.
Thanks Ruth for sharing this. With Russian and Polish heritage I am fearful for the good people of these countries and of course for the desperate people of Ukraine as they try to survive Purim’s evil force of destruction and annihilation.
Hello, Ruth… Thank you for this. Arnold’s wisdom is so admirable in times like these. I hope you’ll look at my Substack site at terenceclarke.substack.com. Be well, and thanks again. Terence Clarke
Probably the most destructive propaganda technique used in the US is the creation of a phantom menace. Creating an unreal menace causes outrage, anger and victimhood but also causes vengeance. We have seen this with CRT and the claim by Trump that the 2020 election was stolen. Their anger is weaponized for political purposes.
One way to fight this technique is to make people aware that it is being used. They will recognize it when someone is trying to manipulate them.
I harbor no animus toward the Russian people and feel rather protective of those who live there, here and elsewhere, although my main concern is with our brothers and sisters living and dying in terror, in Ukraine, because of the ego of one "man". In the Internet Age where all the world can immediately witness his ignobility, you'd think our own collective nobility would have a short answer to the problem. We are, after all, trying to save each other from him. Kudos to you and Arnold. This more Taoistic approach probably also appeals to the Chinese, who have a big say in the matter and future.
The Chinese leader is also an authoritarian like Putin. He has no incentive to care and an incentive to keep another authoritarian in power. If Putin goes than it shows that he can too.
The only scare is nukes. If Putin goes off then China and everyone will die. So China does have an incentive to make sure it does not escalate .
That is why I said the Chinese rather than Xi. From what I can gather from some of their famous historical guides, peace seems to be the default position and preference, which I imagine is generally true for the species if not phylum. Borrow my phylum cabinet.
Humans are mostly peaceful within their tribe. As regarding other tribes history shows humans to be extremely violent.
Humans are only as good as those that lead them. Or influence their minds.
Right now the Chinese people are Xi. As the Russian people are Putin.
They are powerless to the whims of their rulers.
Tribalism and Nationalism are powerful factors. An authoritarian can use that, along with lies and propaganda to get millions to support him. Then use fear to get even more millions to not stand up against him.
In the US we could protest Vietnam. Vote against leaders sending soldiers there. Sure one either had to go to jail or Canada if drafted. Or twist an ankle playing tennis.
Others have no vote, no voice.
1.5 billion can't stand up to one man.
Of that 1.5 billion how many worship him?
It's how humans behave in societies.
Peaceful? Korea. Vietnam.
Genocide of Muslim Uyghurs currently.
Humans are terribly evil when herded into a group and sent to war. Even normally very nice humans that would never hurt anyone otherwise.
The Russian soldiers are doing evil. They likely have no choice but to follow orders.
Nice outline of strategies all of us should be using to reach out to current swallowers of alt-right garbage in USA . . .
You parse that speech like an English professor, Ruth!
Thank you Ruth for this focus. While we are intelligent and knowledgeable, may kindness guide the way.
I was encouraged my local bank printing kindness quotes at the tellers stations, with extras to give away. The fabric shop had product giveaways promoting niceness and kindness.
Somedays it's all we've got. Kindness to me is the antidote to corruption.
Some days, I think kindness is all we need
Arnold is using emotion to appeal to the people.
Rational thought and logic will not work.
He will struggle to get through to those that follow and like Putin.
Likely he has little chance to. The media is controled by Putin. The media not controlled by Putin is not where Putin's followers will go. They seek confirmation bias and not knowledge.
Similar to those in the US. Fox viewers do not seek out knowledge. Any knowledge that conflicts with what they were told they get angry and keep their false belief. When they didn't like Fox saying Biden won they moved to another network.
Centuries after the Enlightenment religious followers don't seek out knowledge. It's the original form of propaganda mixed with authoritarianism.
The Russian Church is backing Putin. Similar to those that back Trump.
So why does propaganda work?
Illusory Truth Effect. Lie and people believe it. Even later when proven false most will continue to do so.
It's due to the human need to trust other humans. Otherwise we would not cooperate like we do. For humanity it has worked. Not so much many times for individual humans.
Cognitive dissonance. These Russians want to beleive Putin. They want to think he is doing some awesome thing for the Ukranians and for Russia.
Nationalism also plays a role. It's a tribal response. One's evil leader is still better than the leaders of the competition.
The human mind is still rather primitve. It's easily manipulated. For many their mind is still attracted to following an alpha. An authoritarian fits the bill. They don't have a choice.
It works on those that are more tribal, are more attracted to authoritarians, are attracked to symbols and rituals, have some false sense of the past as being better than change for the better today.
What will change Russia and end Putin's reign? When an alpha fails his tribe and they start to suffer they can rise up to replace them with another alpha. Easier when tribes were 100 or less. Not so easy when the tribal leader has access to nukes, a huge military under his control and is ruthless and can control all aspects of the information the people receive.
How far will Putin go? How far can he? North Korea is the far end of authoritarian. China is authoritarian but practical. They may want Taiwan but if they invaded the same would happen. The US would stop trading with them.
Sun Tsu said war has to be profitbale. Putin is costing Russia and Russians a lot of money. He might not care. Someone there eventually will care enough to change things.
They likely will use propaganda to do so.
A reasonable question: why does propaganda work? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, Cog Sci, but you seem to be implying that the need to trust others is a weakness …. and misses an important nuance that I think, Ruth here, and Stephen Hassan promotes in his work…. it’s not the need that is the problem…. it’s how we satisfy the need. It’s not the need to eat that is the problem … it’s what we eat. Putin’s at the ugly end of the influence continuum, And it’s a beautiful and hopeful thing when someone like A S recognizes that others’ trust in him can be used to influence for good. So perhaps, it’s helpful to also ask: why does truthful communication work? One result of asking both, is a new opportunity to de-program those propagandized: the need Putin exploits, can also be nourished, as A S demonstrated. Apply this to all the other reasons you give for why propaganda works, see the legitimate need that Putin is exploiting, and you see the the opportunity at the other and good end of the influence continuum
Well I wrote a longer and better post and lost it. So the second effort was not my best.
I will try to explain it better.
Propaganda is used to influence others. By definition it is misleading and lies. It's purposeful.
Those doing it know exactly what they are doing. The public has no idea.
The trust built into the human mind is how propaganda is able to exploit the masses for the benefit of the liars and their agenda.
Why it's so easy is because of how the human mind works.
Illusory truth effect.
Lies once believed are not easy to overcome. Near impossible for many.
Then cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias kick in.
Propaganda uses fear and then scapegoats others. It appeals to our tribal mind. Those Huns. Those Jews. Those Communist Liberals. Those atheists. Those Nazi Ukranians.
They are going to.....add whatever false claim.
All lies but people believe them.
Propaganda is never a good thing.
The human inability to discern fact from fiction is not a good thing.
The opposite of propaganda is the truth.
Why does what you call truthful communication work? Not sure it works. Not everyone is influenced by the lies and the liars. Yet facts and the truth are no match for lies and the fear they instill.
Vaccines save lives. Propaganda and lies influence many to not vaccinate. It's an irrational fear and then exploited by others for political gain.
It's no small group that such lies work on. It's the majority of the human race.
Arnold's attempt to influence Russians is appealing to you. The people that follow Putin will not listen to Arnold.
What Arendt warned everyone about is when humans can no longer tell truth from lies. When that trust is totally gone. Trump made that his main goal. Now facts are not facts.
Not sure that truthful communication works, either, CogSci. But I do know (both from studying history and from over 40 years creating and believing in lies) that propaganda that creates an other to de-value and ultimately kill, promotes division, violence, abuse of power … death. Even from a Darwinian perspective, I seem to be left with employing the kind, empathic, respectful, truthful communication that A S and Ruth demonstrate, in the belief (and that’s pretty much all I have) that creating healthy connections is our best chance, for the most, for life. Trust in that latter belief, exists, perhaps, in a minority, but is certainly not totally gone
I wish we could find a way to defeat the lies. I am of course not a wishful thinker. I liked what Arnold said. I am just saying that Russisns that support Putin won't hear the message. If it gets through it only will be heard by those that like it. Putin supporters are watching other media or no media at all.
Arnold's message is more for us and those that want the invasion over.
CNN put on Putin's propaganda minister last night. It was stupid. He got his message across. That nukes are possible. It will further put fear into the West and will temper the response to his aggression.
CNN was played. Or they let ratings matter more than ending the invasion? Wars are great for TV and profits.
I'm an atheist. I know religions are not true. I can not change the human mind. It's developed over millions of years. We can't change humans to think better. That will take generations. We can change who controls the information that is put into the primitive human mind. It was controlled by first those in power. Then those that controlled the press. Then radio, TV and now the internet.
Sadly where social media should offer humans access to more information and facts it actually has been used for the opposite.
The lies doninate.
There are Russians all over social media.
They are there to divide Americans.
It can be a simple post blaming Biden for something they are causing. Like higher gas prices.
Because humans are not critical thinkers.
Some are. Don't mistake your ability to think critically to be the same for all or most. It is a minority.
Of course a way to reach humans that were lied to and are essentially brainwashed would be a great discovery.
Even a way to reach some. Or a better way to reach some.
So far, it appears our science of communication is still in its infancy … we are still at the level of throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks to combat lies … I’m hopeful the same genius that Putin utilizes to pervert communication, can be used to communicate Truth. Thanks, CogSci, for all the provocative insights here
Schwarzenegger's message also has an emotional effect on those of us who oppose this war. It is so unfortunate that the only way to dissuade Putin the instigator from continuing this horror show is through the suffering of the Russian people. He has effectively used his own citizens as a human shield. I do wish there was another way.
It is as if Putin is saying to his people, "This is a case of mind over matter. I don't mind and you don't matter." Sadly, this is not a good time to be Russian.
More like, what's yours is mine and you don't matter. Navalny just got 9 years for a BS charge. His lawyers were then arrested for speaking out. If the Russian people want to be a part of the world, they know what to do. It wouldn't be the first time.........."The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Jefferson
I watched the vid when it was first released and immediately reacted to the power of the delivery and the message. Schwarzenegger uses truth and empathy as well as a casual, nonthreatening style in a very effective manner. This is a chat with a friend, someone you worry and care about, someone who has lost their way through no fault of their own. It's a plea to come home, a plea to come back to the family of men and women who seek peace and mutual respect in the world.
I agree this manner of outreach may serve Americans in touching base with family and friends, those who have succumbed to far-right propaganda. So easy to become frustrated and angry with little to show for our efforts beyond more anger and frustration.
Been there, done that.
Kudos to Schwarzenegger for showing us a different way. Well done!
Yes, Peg… been there, done that (wrong, too) … and very grateful for the public examples from Arnold and Ruth (and Rebecca Solnit comes to mind in her HOPE IN THE DARK) …. succeeding to speak truth simply and casually, and giving it a chance to be heard
Ruth, I love your idea of making A.S. our ambassador to Russia. He is such an effective communicator and towering persona like no other and especially to the Russian people! Send in the Terminator. He also understands implicitly what Mark Twain said "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." There is always dissonance and and pride involved when people are confronted and challenged with having bought into a propagandist belief system based on lies.
Thanks, Ruth, for your helpful insights on Arnold’s empathic (and hopefully, effective) talk to the Russians …. yes… certainly lessons for us all, as we struggle, and frequently fail, to be as profoundly kind as Arnold was, in making the hard truth, bearable … really appreciate your practical reminders as we learn to embrace, rather than push away, those who are propagandized
We must try, everything possible. That said, propaganda perpetuates through generations. We are looking at roughly 100 years of selective psychological and emotional breeding. That doesn't go away. I remember reading about Raisa Gorbachev, quite an activist liberal for Russia, saying it was psychological insanity to go against the prevailing view. Insanity, because it would get one killed, or sentenced, leading to death. She wasn't wrong. Ivan Pavlov was a Russian. So was Ivan Ilyin, Putin knows both very well. He knows how to make Russians and his enemies "salivate." We need to, lead with a carrot, verify and carry a big stick. "Russia is nothing but the Mafia, with a gas station". John McCain. We must try.
I'm sharing this on my, tiny, Twitter account. Americans very much need to think about these skills to combat propaganda here too, if democracy is to be saved.
Thanks Ruth for sharing this. With Russian and Polish heritage I am fearful for the good people of these countries and of course for the desperate people of Ukraine as they try to survive Purim’s evil force of destruction and annihilation.
Hello, Ruth… Thank you for this. Arnold’s wisdom is so admirable in times like these. I hope you’ll look at my Substack site at terenceclarke.substack.com. Be well, and thanks again. Terence Clarke
Very much enjoyed your March 7 substack posting, your translation of LIGHT LIKE WATER … going to have to read more … thanks Terence!!!!
Thank you.
How to apply the same approach to disinformation/ propaganda in. the USA?
Probably the most destructive propaganda technique used in the US is the creation of a phantom menace. Creating an unreal menace causes outrage, anger and victimhood but also causes vengeance. We have seen this with CRT and the claim by Trump that the 2020 election was stolen. Their anger is weaponized for political purposes.
One way to fight this technique is to make people aware that it is being used. They will recognize it when someone is trying to manipulate them.
This analysis is a good lesson for dealing with friends and relatives who are Stop-the-Steal believers and anti-vaxxers.
I harbor no animus toward the Russian people and feel rather protective of those who live there, here and elsewhere, although my main concern is with our brothers and sisters living and dying in terror, in Ukraine, because of the ego of one "man". In the Internet Age where all the world can immediately witness his ignobility, you'd think our own collective nobility would have a short answer to the problem. We are, after all, trying to save each other from him. Kudos to you and Arnold. This more Taoistic approach probably also appeals to the Chinese, who have a big say in the matter and future.
The Chinese leader is also an authoritarian like Putin. He has no incentive to care and an incentive to keep another authoritarian in power. If Putin goes than it shows that he can too.
The only scare is nukes. If Putin goes off then China and everyone will die. So China does have an incentive to make sure it does not escalate .
That is why I said the Chinese rather than Xi. From what I can gather from some of their famous historical guides, peace seems to be the default position and preference, which I imagine is generally true for the species if not phylum. Borrow my phylum cabinet.
Humans are mostly peaceful within their tribe. As regarding other tribes history shows humans to be extremely violent.
Humans are only as good as those that lead them. Or influence their minds.
Right now the Chinese people are Xi. As the Russian people are Putin.
They are powerless to the whims of their rulers.
Tribalism and Nationalism are powerful factors. An authoritarian can use that, along with lies and propaganda to get millions to support him. Then use fear to get even more millions to not stand up against him.
In the US we could protest Vietnam. Vote against leaders sending soldiers there. Sure one either had to go to jail or Canada if drafted. Or twist an ankle playing tennis.
Others have no vote, no voice.
1.5 billion can't stand up to one man.
Of that 1.5 billion how many worship him?
It's how humans behave in societies.
Peaceful? Korea. Vietnam.
Genocide of Muslim Uyghurs currently.
Humans are terribly evil when herded into a group and sent to war. Even normally very nice humans that would never hurt anyone otherwise.
The Russian soldiers are doing evil. They likely have no choice but to follow orders.
It's a failure of how humans behave in groups.
Mr. Schwarzenegger’s message is brilliant. I note that he is Austrian, not German, by birth.