A common term for this personality type is bully. I agree withe those in the thread that believe that bullies spawn bullies. It's a ( sick) fun place with alota laughs (at others' expense). Who wouldn't want to join (she said sarcastically)?
We must look to un-do these smart alecs dominating our streets & thoroughfares. Having lived with bullies, I suggest you just truthfully conjure up one summary question here & there. Ask in a neutral voice. And continue to look deeply in their eyes as they offer an excuse/ explanation for their behavior. When they say inevitably " it's was just a joke!!!". Before accepting that, mutter two words ( neutrally, with curiosity) --- "how, so?". And wait patiently for them to explain their folly. Often works. Keep " how, so?" in you back pocket.
We, on the streets of America must un-do these bullies one-by-one. Underneath your common bully is a coward, waiting to be called out.
What a great thread, this week runs the full course. Some great thoughts / experiences. I must say, I do not share in any optimism. Jason Stanley, Yale, has been lecturing, using the title, "Preparing for a Fascist America." He, and many other highly capable, distinguished scholars, are giving a very clear warning. I am firmly in that camp. I would be very careful with anyone who suggests that pro-authoritarian dispositions are "innate." I know of no Developmental Psychologist that would support that. I would find a study suggesting that, folly. It would be clearly learned behavior.
Quashing the dangerous rise of authoritarianism in the U.S. cannot be accomplished simply by triumphing over demagogues like Trump (or the even more dangerous Ron DeSantis).
Authoritarian expert/political psychologist Karen Stenner estimates that nearly one-third of our population is pro-authoritarian (intolerant and frightened of those who reject their accepted norms and traditions) and will seek leaders who will rigidly enforce their norms and traditions — even if this means depriving others of rights and punishing them for non-conforming.
What is most unsettling is that Stenner believes that the pro-authoritarian disposition is partly innate and partly heritable. (Personality tests were conducted on twins separated at birth). In other words, encouraging pro-authoritarians to embrace diversity or demonstrating the benefits of liberal democracy is about as likely as convincing non-authoritarians about the virtues of ChristoFascism.
Stenner warns us that even if our best case scenario prevails and we once again thwart authoritarianism, we will not be returning to liberal democracy, but to something new — multicultural liberal democracy. And this, coupled with the fact that the white traditionalist population is faltering — will provoke even more existential terror in that population.
Our best hope may be for social scientists to find ways we can assure this population in its own language that its existence is not threatened and it can enjoy its norms and traditions, provided it does not attempt to impose them on others. We may need to reduce our urges to “re-educate” them and to scold them for speaking scornfully about those who are different, for the more they feel pressured, controlled, and overwhelmed, the more likely they will respond violently.
They are already arming and militarizing. Malcolm Nance, a terrorism expert studying domestic violence, recently warned that their threats to “use the guns” are dangerously accelerating in social media.
Our first goal, of course, is to rescue our dying democracy and enact sweeping laws to protect it going forward (and neuter the SCOTUS radicals). But after that, we have to find ways to quell the fears of one-third of our population.
They’re not going to go away. They’re not going to become us. So how do we help them adjust to a multicultural liberal democracy and feel safe? And included? Is this possible when their propaganda outlets, churches, and leaders are telling them we are dangerous and evil every day?
Finding a solution is our only hope going forward.
You have given us a lot to digest, thank you. I agree with much you have said, some, I firmly disagree. I am very familiar with Malcom Nance. I will guarantee, he would laugh at the thought of a "multicultural liberal democracy" occurring in the US in his, or my lifetime. That's dangerous thinking and lends too letting our guard down. No Fascist is going to "adjust, feel safe and included." A Fascist Regime, will kill you, without thinking and go home, hug the kids and eat supper. Don't believe me ? Ask Ruth. She is a leading expert on what Fascist Regimes do to their political enemies. Malcom will tell you, just as I do: The United States Military will never become a bastion of multicultural liberalism. This sounds like Marianne Williamson.
If fascists take power here, the first thing they will do is eliminate all other political parties. Since fascists are very anti-Marxist, they will imprison or slaughter those on the far left. We have already seen the vicious hatred of the left by Trump supporters. They are being groomed in case they take over. It is the epitome of political bigotry. It could be the harbinger of the future. Nazi Germany had massive conflicts between the left and right in the run up to Hilter's reign. We are seeing some of this now. Fascism can make normally intelligent people say and do the stupidest things.... it can make the simple minded go absolutely berserk.
"... Karen Stenner estimates that nearly one-third of our population is pro-authoritarian..."
I have read this before. It was from a study of the common traits of Trump supporters. It listed the most prevalent trait as being an authoritarian mindset. We have always had these people in this country, so what has changed? They became angry when the nation became deindustrialized from rampant outsourcing. A possible solution would be to rebuild our manufacturing base.
If you are 1:1. Sometimes 'what is the worst thing that could happen, if x,y,z occurred?'
One person I talked with over a period of time was afraid whites were becoming a minority. I asked 'what is the worst thing that could happen with that?' There wasn't an catasophic answer we could think of~~at that time. I could only list benefits (cultural, food, exciting new things)~~& I am white.
Susan, what you have written is the root solution. Quelling fears. Not scolding. These types (1/3), can recoil in shame and double down into their rabbit hole further. Empathy in discussions. I hope and pray there are pyschologists and psychiatrists involved at high levels of planning and messaging because your assessment is accurate, and this is a long term challenge to quell fears. Or at least on staff with Susan Rice, Domestic Council. Your post is thought provoking. It's almost the 'opposites game' where churches could be a solution rather than a source of the problem. (Some, many, not all)
"...devoted elite and grassroots followers eventually equalize", in the narcissist's mind.
We have to change strategies to focus on the narcissist's mindset, because to them -- this is a chess game. Like in chess, focus on the mindset of your opponent to eventually win.
Aggravating, .... but necessary. It's all they focus on 24/7, or 14 hours in the case of one senator. Many Trump/GOP-ers could fit this profile. Beware, and look to outsmart them. It's now systemic across the country. I try to deal in empathy, but if I detect one of these losers, I switch gears. 109 days until November midterms.
Hey folks, see if you can pinpoint the individual that has succumbed to relentless propaganda. Remember to use the tools: Strongmen and How Fascism Works. If you’re not diligent in learning about Fascism, you’ll become a part of it. This example is textbook. Our greatest strength is knowledge and discernment.
Most fascist leaders have been primary or secondary psychopaths (sociopaths). They hide in plain sight. Failing to recognize these people for who they are, is one of the major causes of fascism. The individual you are talking about totally missed that Trump is a sociopath. He finds him to be fairly normal. He also missed the Machiavellianism and sadism. The only thing more dangerous that a sociopath is the suck up to the sociopath.
I like your post. The new book from Sarah should be at my house on 9/13. Should be good. Yes, without the enablers, the leaders are pretty inept. Not recognizing, or excusing, is a factor. However, there are concrete steps and reasons leading to Fascism. Eight years of President Obama and the infiltration of Russian propaganda, made a Petri dish for Fascism to thrive. I feel, important to remember, the rise of Evangelical insanity and those who are profiting from feeding the Fascists are playing a major role. Finally, there is no shortage of False Messiah's. They (messiahs) do not raise the people up. The people raise up the False Messiah's in time of need. Given that; what kind of Nation are we that would allow Fascism to take hold, and make a golden idol out of a narrsitistic sociopath. Wake up America, look in the mirror, our time is growing short.
Some good points Art. The road to fascism is complex. Another reason for our descent into it involves our neoliberal order and their need to outsource jobs to other nations, thereby destoying most of our manufacturing jobs. The broken middle class became angry, as we saw with the Tea Party movement. This morphed into Trumpism (AKA fascism). Trump promised to save the middle class, so these people had found their savior. Little did they know that what he was selling was fascism. It was an "easy sell" to a desperate crowd. Trump needed worshipers for his grandiose self image, and he got them.
Yes, frightening.. I know Cassidy Hutchinson's ketchup story is accurate now, based on DJT demanding a retake ( 'take4!) because he didn't want the "breaking the law" verbiage in there for his followers. Poor Ivanka in the background feebly coaching, and Donald's childish face & hand contortions. The ketchup story is like an SNL skit, who thought someone could be so out of control ? You can't make this stuff up... Thank you J6 committee, witnesses and subject matter experts. 109 days left until the midterms. Talk to everyone you meet.
Ruth, If you paid this kind of attention to the REAL existential threats to democracy we would have a secure southern border, less government regulation, and safe cities, etc...you know the list and it's endless. Maybe Democrats should come clean about the Russian Collusion attempted coup, the total BS impeachments. Those are the hearings I will be watching after the house and hopefully the senate flip. The threats from the left place just about every aspect of the freedoms enjoyed by my ancestors at risk. The past 2 years have been the best illustration yet of the insanity that befalls the nation every time Dems have power. Trump is an ass but wat the greatest president of my lifetime. He stood for what is important to the US and he successfully fought to protect us from you and those who are drooling on themselves watching the hearings, overcome by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Thank you, Michael for the regurgitation of the latest Putin-inspired, radical repub Fox non-news talking points. Normally I check in on Fox or OANN or Newsmax for 5 mins a day to catch up on the latest disinformation … thanks for relieving me of that distasteful chore today!
Everything about your comment is as far from accurate as you can get, which means you are making decisions armed with nonsense, typical leftist. It does explain the ability to go along with the anarchistic dismantling of institutions in an ends-justify-the-means war on all of us. You are true to form with the virtue signals and my personal favorite: when all else fails, resort to adolescent taunting. You have that one down!
Excellent examples of doubling down and projection, Michael … plus a little ad hominem … love the real-time show-and-tell in classic disinformation messaging!!
Ruth, do you expect Trump's elite and grassroots followers to ever reach the understanding that Trump is loyal to no one? He's thrown everyone from his mentor to his VP under the bus, yet everyone seems to believe that their situation will be different.
Trump famously said "I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and I wouldn't lose any votes" History shows leader cults to be extraordinarily strong and enduring. It took allied bombing during WWII to finally break the Dulce's cult. Among the loyal grassroots followers of Trump, I would not expect them to change their minds one bit. In fact when there is a threat to the myth of their leader's invincibility they double down in their loyalty and belief. Through the usual propaganda channels and social media outlets, they feed themselves explanations and rationalizations that strengthens and sustains their faith in der leader.
Part of the problem with Trump and his followers is that Trump is a role model and is emulated. When such a role model is a sociopath like Trump, that behavior is emulated in what we can call trickle down sociopathy. Large factions of society become angry, mean and callous just like their hero. This is the primary danger of fascism, that a large faction of society loses its mind. Even though they probably wouldn't be diagnosed as sociopaths, they act like it. Deviant behavior is normalized when a lunatic is at the helm.
I think what we saw last night is that while Trump's actions (or inactions) were the prime mover of the J6 terrorist attack, there is more than enough culpability to go around with his enablers and co-conspirators. Democracy will not be safe until they are all held to account, whether acting to overthrow the government like Giuliani, Trump, Flynn and Bannon; or acting to protect Trump like Mike Lee. The rot goes very deep in what is still benignly referred to as the Republican Party.
Jared Yates Sexton (previously interviewed by Ruth, and a guest at a recent Lucid Zoom gathering) dives deeply into the rot in his latest, July 21, Dispatches from a Collapsing State blog, “The Whole Rotten Thing”
A common term for this personality type is bully. I agree withe those in the thread that believe that bullies spawn bullies. It's a ( sick) fun place with alota laughs (at others' expense). Who wouldn't want to join (she said sarcastically)?
We must look to un-do these smart alecs dominating our streets & thoroughfares. Having lived with bullies, I suggest you just truthfully conjure up one summary question here & there. Ask in a neutral voice. And continue to look deeply in their eyes as they offer an excuse/ explanation for their behavior. When they say inevitably " it's was just a joke!!!". Before accepting that, mutter two words ( neutrally, with curiosity) --- "how, so?". And wait patiently for them to explain their folly. Often works. Keep " how, so?" in you back pocket.
We, on the streets of America must un-do these bullies one-by-one. Underneath your common bully is a coward, waiting to be called out.
What a great thread, this week runs the full course. Some great thoughts / experiences. I must say, I do not share in any optimism. Jason Stanley, Yale, has been lecturing, using the title, "Preparing for a Fascist America." He, and many other highly capable, distinguished scholars, are giving a very clear warning. I am firmly in that camp. I would be very careful with anyone who suggests that pro-authoritarian dispositions are "innate." I know of no Developmental Psychologist that would support that. I would find a study suggesting that, folly. It would be clearly learned behavior.
Quashing the dangerous rise of authoritarianism in the U.S. cannot be accomplished simply by triumphing over demagogues like Trump (or the even more dangerous Ron DeSantis).
Authoritarian expert/political psychologist Karen Stenner estimates that nearly one-third of our population is pro-authoritarian (intolerant and frightened of those who reject their accepted norms and traditions) and will seek leaders who will rigidly enforce their norms and traditions — even if this means depriving others of rights and punishing them for non-conforming.
What is most unsettling is that Stenner believes that the pro-authoritarian disposition is partly innate and partly heritable. (Personality tests were conducted on twins separated at birth). In other words, encouraging pro-authoritarians to embrace diversity or demonstrating the benefits of liberal democracy is about as likely as convincing non-authoritarians about the virtues of ChristoFascism.
Stenner warns us that even if our best case scenario prevails and we once again thwart authoritarianism, we will not be returning to liberal democracy, but to something new — multicultural liberal democracy. And this, coupled with the fact that the white traditionalist population is faltering — will provoke even more existential terror in that population.
Our best hope may be for social scientists to find ways we can assure this population in its own language that its existence is not threatened and it can enjoy its norms and traditions, provided it does not attempt to impose them on others. We may need to reduce our urges to “re-educate” them and to scold them for speaking scornfully about those who are different, for the more they feel pressured, controlled, and overwhelmed, the more likely they will respond violently.
They are already arming and militarizing. Malcolm Nance, a terrorism expert studying domestic violence, recently warned that their threats to “use the guns” are dangerously accelerating in social media.
Our first goal, of course, is to rescue our dying democracy and enact sweeping laws to protect it going forward (and neuter the SCOTUS radicals). But after that, we have to find ways to quell the fears of one-third of our population.
They’re not going to go away. They’re not going to become us. So how do we help them adjust to a multicultural liberal democracy and feel safe? And included? Is this possible when their propaganda outlets, churches, and leaders are telling them we are dangerous and evil every day?
Finding a solution is our only hope going forward.
You have given us a lot to digest, thank you. I agree with much you have said, some, I firmly disagree. I am very familiar with Malcom Nance. I will guarantee, he would laugh at the thought of a "multicultural liberal democracy" occurring in the US in his, or my lifetime. That's dangerous thinking and lends too letting our guard down. No Fascist is going to "adjust, feel safe and included." A Fascist Regime, will kill you, without thinking and go home, hug the kids and eat supper. Don't believe me ? Ask Ruth. She is a leading expert on what Fascist Regimes do to their political enemies. Malcom will tell you, just as I do: The United States Military will never become a bastion of multicultural liberalism. This sounds like Marianne Williamson.
If fascists take power here, the first thing they will do is eliminate all other political parties. Since fascists are very anti-Marxist, they will imprison or slaughter those on the far left. We have already seen the vicious hatred of the left by Trump supporters. They are being groomed in case they take over. It is the epitome of political bigotry. It could be the harbinger of the future. Nazi Germany had massive conflicts between the left and right in the run up to Hilter's reign. We are seeing some of this now. Fascism can make normally intelligent people say and do the stupidest things.... it can make the simple minded go absolutely berserk.
"... Karen Stenner estimates that nearly one-third of our population is pro-authoritarian..."
I have read this before. It was from a study of the common traits of Trump supporters. It listed the most prevalent trait as being an authoritarian mindset. We have always had these people in this country, so what has changed? They became angry when the nation became deindustrialized from rampant outsourcing. A possible solution would be to rebuild our manufacturing base.
That caused anger alright . . . Rebuild. We are just a shell now, dependent on every other country for goods.
If you are 1:1. Sometimes 'what is the worst thing that could happen, if x,y,z occurred?'
One person I talked with over a period of time was afraid whites were becoming a minority. I asked 'what is the worst thing that could happen with that?' There wasn't an catasophic answer we could think of~~at that time. I could only list benefits (cultural, food, exciting new things)~~& I am white.
Susan, what you have written is the root solution. Quelling fears. Not scolding. These types (1/3), can recoil in shame and double down into their rabbit hole further. Empathy in discussions. I hope and pray there are pyschologists and psychiatrists involved at high levels of planning and messaging because your assessment is accurate, and this is a long term challenge to quell fears. Or at least on staff with Susan Rice, Domestic Council. Your post is thought provoking. It's almost the 'opposites game' where churches could be a solution rather than a source of the problem. (Some, many, not all)
"...devoted elite and grassroots followers eventually equalize", in the narcissist's mind.
We have to change strategies to focus on the narcissist's mindset, because to them -- this is a chess game. Like in chess, focus on the mindset of your opponent to eventually win.
Aggravating, .... but necessary. It's all they focus on 24/7, or 14 hours in the case of one senator. Many Trump/GOP-ers could fit this profile. Beware, and look to outsmart them. It's now systemic across the country. I try to deal in empathy, but if I detect one of these losers, I switch gears. 109 days until November midterms.
“ as devoted elite and grassroots followers eventually realize. “ did they though? Today’s Senate May as well be Emperor Caligula’s Senate.
Co-conspirators. What a mess for Garland.
Hey folks, see if you can pinpoint the individual that has succumbed to relentless propaganda. Remember to use the tools: Strongmen and How Fascism Works. If you’re not diligent in learning about Fascism, you’ll become a part of it. This example is textbook. Our greatest strength is knowledge and discernment.
Most fascist leaders have been primary or secondary psychopaths (sociopaths). They hide in plain sight. Failing to recognize these people for who they are, is one of the major causes of fascism. The individual you are talking about totally missed that Trump is a sociopath. He finds him to be fairly normal. He also missed the Machiavellianism and sadism. The only thing more dangerous that a sociopath is the suck up to the sociopath.
I like your post. The new book from Sarah should be at my house on 9/13. Should be good. Yes, without the enablers, the leaders are pretty inept. Not recognizing, or excusing, is a factor. However, there are concrete steps and reasons leading to Fascism. Eight years of President Obama and the infiltration of Russian propaganda, made a Petri dish for Fascism to thrive. I feel, important to remember, the rise of Evangelical insanity and those who are profiting from feeding the Fascists are playing a major role. Finally, there is no shortage of False Messiah's. They (messiahs) do not raise the people up. The people raise up the False Messiah's in time of need. Given that; what kind of Nation are we that would allow Fascism to take hold, and make a golden idol out of a narrsitistic sociopath. Wake up America, look in the mirror, our time is growing short.
Some good points Art. The road to fascism is complex. Another reason for our descent into it involves our neoliberal order and their need to outsource jobs to other nations, thereby destoying most of our manufacturing jobs. The broken middle class became angry, as we saw with the Tea Party movement. This morphed into Trumpism (AKA fascism). Trump promised to save the middle class, so these people had found their savior. Little did they know that what he was selling was fascism. It was an "easy sell" to a desperate crowd. Trump needed worshipers for his grandiose self image, and he got them.
Thanks for this practical reminder to reference and reread working to message the majority of fellow Americans back to the 50 yard line.
I wonder how much more delusional a state of mind Trump was in, following his severe COVID in October 2020.
Yes, frightening.. I know Cassidy Hutchinson's ketchup story is accurate now, based on DJT demanding a retake ( 'take4!) because he didn't want the "breaking the law" verbiage in there for his followers. Poor Ivanka in the background feebly coaching, and Donald's childish face & hand contortions. The ketchup story is like an SNL skit, who thought someone could be so out of control ? You can't make this stuff up... Thank you J6 committee, witnesses and subject matter experts. 109 days left until the midterms. Talk to everyone you meet.
Ruth, If you paid this kind of attention to the REAL existential threats to democracy we would have a secure southern border, less government regulation, and safe cities, etc...you know the list and it's endless. Maybe Democrats should come clean about the Russian Collusion attempted coup, the total BS impeachments. Those are the hearings I will be watching after the house and hopefully the senate flip. The threats from the left place just about every aspect of the freedoms enjoyed by my ancestors at risk. The past 2 years have been the best illustration yet of the insanity that befalls the nation every time Dems have power. Trump is an ass but wat the greatest president of my lifetime. He stood for what is important to the US and he successfully fought to protect us from you and those who are drooling on themselves watching the hearings, overcome by Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I give thanks for the federal government every day. They are like the adult in the room. In this criminal environment, we need them more, not less.
Thank you, Michael for the regurgitation of the latest Putin-inspired, radical repub Fox non-news talking points. Normally I check in on Fox or OANN or Newsmax for 5 mins a day to catch up on the latest disinformation … thanks for relieving me of that distasteful chore today!
😂😂😂 Go get em buddy.
Good news! OANN is finished. See https://www.pcmag.com/news/oann-loses-last-lifeline-as-verizon-ends-carriage-deal
Sanity
Everything about your comment is as far from accurate as you can get, which means you are making decisions armed with nonsense, typical leftist. It does explain the ability to go along with the anarchistic dismantling of institutions in an ends-justify-the-means war on all of us. You are true to form with the virtue signals and my personal favorite: when all else fails, resort to adolescent taunting. You have that one down!
Excellent examples of doubling down and projection, Michael … plus a little ad hominem … love the real-time show-and-tell in classic disinformation messaging!!
Ruth, do you expect Trump's elite and grassroots followers to ever reach the understanding that Trump is loyal to no one? He's thrown everyone from his mentor to his VP under the bus, yet everyone seems to believe that their situation will be different.
Trump famously said "I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and I wouldn't lose any votes" History shows leader cults to be extraordinarily strong and enduring. It took allied bombing during WWII to finally break the Dulce's cult. Among the loyal grassroots followers of Trump, I would not expect them to change their minds one bit. In fact when there is a threat to the myth of their leader's invincibility they double down in their loyalty and belief. Through the usual propaganda channels and social media outlets, they feed themselves explanations and rationalizations that strengthens and sustains their faith in der leader.
Part of the problem with Trump and his followers is that Trump is a role model and is emulated. When such a role model is a sociopath like Trump, that behavior is emulated in what we can call trickle down sociopathy. Large factions of society become angry, mean and callous just like their hero. This is the primary danger of fascism, that a large faction of society loses its mind. Even though they probably wouldn't be diagnosed as sociopaths, they act like it. Deviant behavior is normalized when a lunatic is at the helm.
The malignant narcissism and authoritarianism of Trump spreads like a contagion throughout the population.
Fascism is the new heroin.
Double down with blinders on.
Thank you. Understanding this history, and reading the last line of Ruth's essay today, led me to ask this question.
I think what we saw last night is that while Trump's actions (or inactions) were the prime mover of the J6 terrorist attack, there is more than enough culpability to go around with his enablers and co-conspirators. Democracy will not be safe until they are all held to account, whether acting to overthrow the government like Giuliani, Trump, Flynn and Bannon; or acting to protect Trump like Mike Lee. The rot goes very deep in what is still benignly referred to as the Republican Party.
Seems like attempted murder to me
Jared Yates Sexton (previously interviewed by Ruth, and a guest at a recent Lucid Zoom gathering) dives deeply into the rot in his latest, July 21, Dispatches from a Collapsing State blog, “The Whole Rotten Thing”