Another question for you Ruth related to your specialty- propaganda. You recently commented on Twitter about Ohio Rep. Warren Davidson’s Twitter post making the false comparison of Nazim to DC Mayor Bowser’s health restrictions (access to restaurants, etc contingent on vaccine status). Clearly this is Holocaust inversion/ distortion which belies manipulation & dishonesty. Could you elaborate on your comment so we can better understand the mechanism?
Your comment:
“ The point is to put Nazi symbols into mass circulation, giving them a fresh audience under cover of "outrage."
I found myself grappling with the question a few months ago if historically most people knew when a civil war or mass atrocity outbreak was going to happen in their society. I’m no historian but from what I can tell the answer is a strong yes. It’s might have felt like an unstoppable inevitably? What do you think Ruth & other historians?
I focus on antisemitism as an indicator of risk for human rights and civil rights violations also as an indicator of destabilizing actors & factors. From this perspective we’re very deep into it. I completely agree with everything said here. I would point readers to 2 other sources that reenforce this interview’s premise:
You mention that sanctions in 1980 S.A. strangled businesses which subsequently helped change regimes. But will that work today when authoritarian regimes financially support each other?
My attention is drawn most closely to the notion of letting business interest know that someone's watching and we believe this is what you are signing on to - there will be consequences for your 'bottom line' , regardless of political outcomes; and it won't be good nor profitable. Mom always told me if you're out to hurt someone, hit them in the wallet. I also have this to share that I've read the gist of in more than one spot. > https://www.accountable.us/research/in-bad-company/
I agree with the amazing insights in this interview, which would be impossible without decades of thought, research, and a rare openness to the experiences of others. I did ask myself, why was there not a full fledged civil war in Northern Ireland over thirty years of simmering religious and economic conflict punctuated by moments of terror? Why did decades, indeed centuries, of violence suddenly end in the early to mid 90s? Could civil war be averted when all elements involved just exhausted themselves and hit a stalemate?
That was a very informative and educational interview.
"... whether a country was ethnically, religiously or racially factionalized. " This sounds so much like the social Darwinism that was common in fascist countries. Once certain groups are deemed as less worthy, it becomes easy to hate them or kill them. The social Darwinism sentiment is growing in the US and is a major pillar of Trumpism. Sociopaths like Trump are all about dominance and submission, so it makes sense that he promotes destructive social Darwinism. But this mentality has ruined nations in the past and it is ruining ours now.
I'd like to believe we, all Americans, can reverse the seemingly headstrong course towards civil conflict, but I'm not hopeful. Because Americans have largely been turned into Consumers. Big business/Tech innovators like Amazon, and the more nefarious web sites that are so partisan allows its users to cocoon into; own us.
Then there's that nasty lil fact about 2020 record gun sales. We aren't, as a nation moving towards peace.
The current legislative body has masterfully figured out how to stay in power without doing the work of the people; the "people," as Rick Shenkman pointed out in his book, Just How Stupid Are We? Aren't very smart, and certainly haven't shown any willingness to engage in anything other than hyperbole.
It seems the only tactic that moves Americans is "shock and awe."
Hopefully the extreme right and extreme left can one day very soon awaken to see the value in a UNITED STATES of America, a concept they've lost all vision of.
I just don't see it coming from big business, because just like during WW II , they profit mightily from the cheap labor of labor camps.
Extreme thought, yes...unfathomable, no.
As so aptly put by Issac Asimov, "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Most certainly appreciate your work and contribution to the space. Looking forward to the added discussion that will inevitably result in the demise of this toxic environment. The first step in the eradication of prejudice and hatred is always its “outing” into the public space, through dialogue and education; the first harbinger of its decline. I’m indebted for your courage to do that.
Great interview Ruth. I especially liked her pointing out what happened in South Africa. The role economic sanctions played and then the regime finally shifted when the business community realized it would be bad for business and profits would be hurt. Reform and compromise happened because of influence from the business sector.
So that is an important card we have to play here in the US. Making business in America aware of the costs to their bottom line if there's civil war, violence or continued erosion of democracy. Then motivating them to lean in against the rise of the ever growing authoritarianism within the GOP and its ranks. If they realize its bad for business they can threaten to withhold campaign contributions.
I'd really like to believe that the US can forestall what increasingly appears to be inevitable, but 1) Manchin and Sinema will never support a filibuster carve out. It's a fantasy to believe otherwise, 2) unlike South Africa, US corporations have zero interest in avoiding essentially an apartheid system in the US. Most are silent on voting rights, all but 2 are silent on the filibuster, 3) US citizens are particularly naive and ignorant of history, and utterly incapable of acknowledging imminent fascism, 4) ditto the press, which is so accustomed to absolute freedoms that they fail to see the grave dangers they will face in the next decade, 5) both GOP base and leadership believe they will enjoy the benefits of authoritarian rule, while the 'others' suffer. It doesn't work that way. Everyone is expendable except the leader and his family, especially the press and wealthy CEOs...tax cuts mean little when the extortion starts and there's no recourse. Dishonorable mention to the wildly partisan SCOTUS with its arrogant disdain for civil rights and human life and to the feckless AG Garlsnd, who has managed to turn one of the country's most egregious conspiracy's to overturn democracy into an endless parade of slaps on the wrist for low level dupes. So now what? Yes, we should all vote in the highest numbers in history, good people should run for every local, city, county, state office, the only agenda for 2022 should be pro-democracy, which means no votes for any Republican who fails to admit the reality of 1/6 and reject Trump and the Big Lie. Covid, school closings, CRT, wokeism, immigration, global warming, etc must take 2nd place until we restore our democracy. So, is it possible? Yes. Do I personally believe that it will happen? No. I'd like to be proven completely wrong just once in this 7+ year nightmare.
Ah... civil war coming to America, again ??? My "heart" says "yes." We need a purge every once in a while, so we start with "killing all the lawyers" (me included), and taking Fox News (really Fox Entertainment) off the air. But, my "mind" and my allegiance to the 1st Amendment and to "peace" says, "overcome the emotion of comeuppance, and the silencing of the enemy, and love your fellow man and woman ... even those on the hard right." Not an easy task.
As Barbara Walter points out, the recipe for civil war in America (and elsewhere) ??? Polarization and an "us against them" mentality that is stoked by self serving, demagogue lies of our political leaders and their media sycophants. But never forget that the ultimate sycophant of the America right wing is our arch enemy and Trump's dear friend, Vladimir Putin.
The Republican head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, said in 2018... “Russia is waging an information warfare campaign against the U.S. that didn’t start and didn’t end with the 2016 election” and “Their [Russia’s] goal is broader: to sow societal discord and erode public confidence in the machinery of government.” https://foreignpolicy.com › 2019/10/08 › bipartisan-senate-report-undercut…
Maybe, shining the light of the day on Putin's nefarious undermining of the America's e pluribus unum ("out of many... one") will encourage all of us on the left to oppose Putin and his "admirer in chief," Donald Trump, while "civilly engaging" our fellow right wing Americans rather than engaging them in a civil war ... all in search of "common ground," like preserving the Union of the United States of America, once again. No ???
This was a very sobering read. I had never heard of anocracy. Thank you.
Another question for you Ruth related to your specialty- propaganda. You recently commented on Twitter about Ohio Rep. Warren Davidson’s Twitter post making the false comparison of Nazim to DC Mayor Bowser’s health restrictions (access to restaurants, etc contingent on vaccine status). Clearly this is Holocaust inversion/ distortion which belies manipulation & dishonesty. Could you elaborate on your comment so we can better understand the mechanism?
Your comment:
“ The point is to put Nazi symbols into mass circulation, giving them a fresh audience under cover of "outrage."
Thank you so much!!!
I found myself grappling with the question a few months ago if historically most people knew when a civil war or mass atrocity outbreak was going to happen in their society. I’m no historian but from what I can tell the answer is a strong yes. It’s might have felt like an unstoppable inevitably? What do you think Ruth & other historians?
I focus on antisemitism as an indicator of risk for human rights and civil rights violations also as an indicator of destabilizing actors & factors. From this perspective we’re very deep into it. I completely agree with everything said here. I would point readers to 2 other sources that reenforce this interview’s premise:
1). https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-report/2021/crisis-reform-call-strengthen-americas-battered-democracy
2). James Waller’s work on mass violence risks & strategies to lower the temperature
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMeZF0O4i0
You mention that sanctions in 1980 S.A. strangled businesses which subsequently helped change regimes. But will that work today when authoritarian regimes financially support each other?
Thank you Ruth for this practical, succinct interview. May wise minds prevail from sea to shining sea.
My attention is drawn most closely to the notion of letting business interest know that someone's watching and we believe this is what you are signing on to - there will be consequences for your 'bottom line' , regardless of political outcomes; and it won't be good nor profitable. Mom always told me if you're out to hurt someone, hit them in the wallet. I also have this to share that I've read the gist of in more than one spot. > https://www.accountable.us/research/in-bad-company/
I agree with the amazing insights in this interview, which would be impossible without decades of thought, research, and a rare openness to the experiences of others. I did ask myself, why was there not a full fledged civil war in Northern Ireland over thirty years of simmering religious and economic conflict punctuated by moments of terror? Why did decades, indeed centuries, of violence suddenly end in the early to mid 90s? Could civil war be averted when all elements involved just exhausted themselves and hit a stalemate?
That was a very informative and educational interview.
"... whether a country was ethnically, religiously or racially factionalized. " This sounds so much like the social Darwinism that was common in fascist countries. Once certain groups are deemed as less worthy, it becomes easy to hate them or kill them. The social Darwinism sentiment is growing in the US and is a major pillar of Trumpism. Sociopaths like Trump are all about dominance and submission, so it makes sense that he promotes destructive social Darwinism. But this mentality has ruined nations in the past and it is ruining ours now.
I'd like to believe we, all Americans, can reverse the seemingly headstrong course towards civil conflict, but I'm not hopeful. Because Americans have largely been turned into Consumers. Big business/Tech innovators like Amazon, and the more nefarious web sites that are so partisan allows its users to cocoon into; own us.
Then there's that nasty lil fact about 2020 record gun sales. We aren't, as a nation moving towards peace.
The current legislative body has masterfully figured out how to stay in power without doing the work of the people; the "people," as Rick Shenkman pointed out in his book, Just How Stupid Are We? Aren't very smart, and certainly haven't shown any willingness to engage in anything other than hyperbole.
It seems the only tactic that moves Americans is "shock and awe."
Hopefully the extreme right and extreme left can one day very soon awaken to see the value in a UNITED STATES of America, a concept they've lost all vision of.
I just don't see it coming from big business, because just like during WW II , they profit mightily from the cheap labor of labor camps.
Extreme thought, yes...unfathomable, no.
As so aptly put by Issac Asimov, "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Peace and unity in 2022
Most certainly appreciate your work and contribution to the space. Looking forward to the added discussion that will inevitably result in the demise of this toxic environment. The first step in the eradication of prejudice and hatred is always its “outing” into the public space, through dialogue and education; the first harbinger of its decline. I’m indebted for your courage to do that.
Great interview Ruth. I especially liked her pointing out what happened in South Africa. The role economic sanctions played and then the regime finally shifted when the business community realized it would be bad for business and profits would be hurt. Reform and compromise happened because of influence from the business sector.
So that is an important card we have to play here in the US. Making business in America aware of the costs to their bottom line if there's civil war, violence or continued erosion of democracy. Then motivating them to lean in against the rise of the ever growing authoritarianism within the GOP and its ranks. If they realize its bad for business they can threaten to withhold campaign contributions.
I'd really like to believe that the US can forestall what increasingly appears to be inevitable, but 1) Manchin and Sinema will never support a filibuster carve out. It's a fantasy to believe otherwise, 2) unlike South Africa, US corporations have zero interest in avoiding essentially an apartheid system in the US. Most are silent on voting rights, all but 2 are silent on the filibuster, 3) US citizens are particularly naive and ignorant of history, and utterly incapable of acknowledging imminent fascism, 4) ditto the press, which is so accustomed to absolute freedoms that they fail to see the grave dangers they will face in the next decade, 5) both GOP base and leadership believe they will enjoy the benefits of authoritarian rule, while the 'others' suffer. It doesn't work that way. Everyone is expendable except the leader and his family, especially the press and wealthy CEOs...tax cuts mean little when the extortion starts and there's no recourse. Dishonorable mention to the wildly partisan SCOTUS with its arrogant disdain for civil rights and human life and to the feckless AG Garlsnd, who has managed to turn one of the country's most egregious conspiracy's to overturn democracy into an endless parade of slaps on the wrist for low level dupes. So now what? Yes, we should all vote in the highest numbers in history, good people should run for every local, city, county, state office, the only agenda for 2022 should be pro-democracy, which means no votes for any Republican who fails to admit the reality of 1/6 and reject Trump and the Big Lie. Covid, school closings, CRT, wokeism, immigration, global warming, etc must take 2nd place until we restore our democracy. So, is it possible? Yes. Do I personally believe that it will happen? No. I'd like to be proven completely wrong just once in this 7+ year nightmare.
Ah... civil war coming to America, again ??? My "heart" says "yes." We need a purge every once in a while, so we start with "killing all the lawyers" (me included), and taking Fox News (really Fox Entertainment) off the air. But, my "mind" and my allegiance to the 1st Amendment and to "peace" says, "overcome the emotion of comeuppance, and the silencing of the enemy, and love your fellow man and woman ... even those on the hard right." Not an easy task.
As Barbara Walter points out, the recipe for civil war in America (and elsewhere) ??? Polarization and an "us against them" mentality that is stoked by self serving, demagogue lies of our political leaders and their media sycophants. But never forget that the ultimate sycophant of the America right wing is our arch enemy and Trump's dear friend, Vladimir Putin.
The Republican head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, said in 2018... “Russia is waging an information warfare campaign against the U.S. that didn’t start and didn’t end with the 2016 election” and “Their [Russia’s] goal is broader: to sow societal discord and erode public confidence in the machinery of government.” https://foreignpolicy.com › 2019/10/08 › bipartisan-senate-report-undercut…
Maybe, shining the light of the day on Putin's nefarious undermining of the America's e pluribus unum ("out of many... one") will encourage all of us on the left to oppose Putin and his "admirer in chief," Donald Trump, while "civilly engaging" our fellow right wing Americans rather than engaging them in a civil war ... all in search of "common ground," like preserving the Union of the United States of America, once again. No ???
Fred Lauck
Thanks for the interview and clear-headed analysis of this threat.
Exceptional. 👏👏👏👏