Welcome back to Lucid, and hello all new subscribers. Our next Q&A will be on Jan. 26, 1-2pmET. International affairs specialist and Ukraine expert Terrell Jermaine Starr, who hosts the Black Diplomats podcast and publishes the Black Diplomats Substack
JEWS are Christ Killers, so no one cares. (Interestingly enough first, century Jews under the occupation of Rome could not exercise capital punishment—and even if they were feeling feisty, they most certainly would never have attempted such a flaunting of Rome while the Procurator, Pilate, was in town for the Passover; the occupiers, the Romans, therefore, crucified the Jewish Jesus of Nazareth for political reasons. The ‘New’ Testament notes that Pilate did affix the phrase, “Here is the king of the Jews,” to the crucifix so that anyone with such aspirations would think 40 or 50 times.) Therefore, everyone has to know that jc probably never lived. (That would come as news to first-century historian Josephus, “Antiquities of the Jews”—Josephus as a source can be debated, but that’s what historians do, research, interpret, and argue) At most, he was just another religious nut who lived two thousand years ago when these types were rampant. (True enough, the era was characterized by Messiahs, Prophets, and Bandits. Check out Richard A. Horsley’s work. Acts 5:38-39 has an interesting commentary on the time by Gamaliel, the Jewish Paul’s teacher, "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” and he looked like a man of his time: very short, dark with Semitic features. (Unquestionably, no Nordic Jesus in a MAGA cap ever existed!) No white person prays to this kind of fellow. (I’m a shade of white, not so much in the summer, and Italian to boot, and I pray to the Jewish, dark-skinned, short, amazing hiker from Nazareth)
What an eye-opening essay. I'd always assumed that Italy took similar steps as Germany did post-WWII. Seeing the mosaic and the painting in such prominent places surprised me. From the formation of modern Italy, Italian politics has been "interesting".
Thank you for this lesson in the history of facism in Italy. The art work is especially interesting. What do tourists think about the art and architecture when they don't understand the significance? If they are Americans and you tell them, they'll know right away what's been going on there!
It certainly convinces me not to visit Italy - at least not in this lifetime! The differences between Germany and Italy and how they handle their pasts are astounding. I couldn’t help also recalling the thuggery of Cosa Nostra also. Though there has been movement in Sicily to tamp down thei activity.
Ruth, can you comment on the Austrian experience dealing with fascism? My sister recently visited Vienna and Berlin and was struck by the difference between the two. I got the impression that Austria is closer to Italy in this regard.
Giving latitude to fascists, racists, and misogynists is a manifestation of tolerance and good will as many of us have been taught by our religious beliefs, our schools, and our families. As such we are slow to realize inherent authoritarianism and sociopathy of "brotherhoods;" those that are determined to use our good graces for their advantage. It's a hard call to make. We don't want to set aside our ideals to curtail what may turn out to be the "hand that bites us."
Hope, in response to the "We don't want to set aside our ideals..." comment, I think about the balance between the ethic of "rights," and the ethic of "responsibility." It seems to me that freedom of speech must be balanced with responsibility to the larger society. When the speech of one person or group threatens to activate widespread anxiety or violence, then under the ethic of responsibility it would be negligent and dangerous to stand idly by. It's a judgment call, for sure...but not a loss of ideals. Just a focus on the greater good.
Nicely said, Madeline. Thank you. The other evening, a resident in our apartment building used the "N" word. When I pointed out the harm of that term, she responded, "I can say whatever I want." Unlike my usual silence I said, "No you can't. Not if it is something harmful to others."
Thank you for putting into words, the dilemma of rights: right to free speech with right to personal safety. I agree that with freedom, we must use that freedom responsibly; similar to driving a car, we must obey rules to operate that freedom to drive safely.
It becomes a freedom of speech issue as well. Those lacking in virtues have historically used the freedoms of their society to push their vice-ridden mentality on others. These freedoms have destroyed democracies in the past, because they were abused. This is why I'm so against allowing fascist speech to be heard here. tRump's 2015 campaign was all about fascist indoctrination, but it was allowed. Now we're seeing the consequences. It has created a collective delusion on the far right.
Is it possible to prove in court that the use of "hate speech" intends to harm a group of individuals? How do we prove "hate speech" intends to destroy democracy? Oof! I am arguing with myself because I agree with your statement that those "lacking in virtues" have abused them to the destruction of democratic society. I see autocratic strongmen here trying to destroy these virtues in education, public institutions, houses of worship, citizens' voting rights and the media. I agree with you, we must put a stop on "fascist indoctrination"
I don't believe that we need to use the court system in this matter. I believe that fascist propaganda needs to be addressed by Congress, and pass a law that prevents it. We know from history how effective propaganda is, especially the paranoia-based propaganda of fascism. We've seen the results of letting fascist speech run wild.
Hope, I am troubled by the use of the word "ideal". I would guess you mean "our morals" An ideal can be the epitome or an outcome that is harmful to innocent people. I prefer the word "ethics" what as seen as the greater good for society. For example Hitler's ideals for a white, aryan world, or Jim Crow post civil war America's white, christian-only worldview are immoral but still ideals.
Whoa! Yet more troubling history being reinvigorated, it made me think of the confederate statues we have been struggling to move here in the US. On a more hopeful note, maybe, I thought I saw a counter protest in Italy with thousands of (d)emocracy supporters that gathered in opposition to the rise in the far rights use of the fascist salute. I forwarded it to you on Xchan and if I misinterpreted what was actually going on I do apologize. I read it as an example of the growing protest movements we have talked about here on the Lucidania =]
Oops, it was a protest against the far right in Germany =] And I think you saw and commented on it on Xchan. I figured it had already come to your attention but i kinda wanted to show you that I'm paying attention =] 🌊🏄♂️🌅🪷😊
To me, these fascist types like to prey on people's fears and prejudices while enriching themselves and family/friends. Politicians per se? Maybe, but these fascist types make it seem obvious to me. With factories shipped out to China, and tech/AI taking over many jobs....... this is going to get worse!
I worry a lot about our use of language. When we refer to a "type", it brings to mind a "group". When we speak this way, I believe it paints an individual with a "broad brush", that can be used by a "StrongMan" to harm us. I believe we all must see and respond to every person we are with in any moment as an individual.
Jews didn't kill christ but white christians can use this as their excuse to get rid of them. Just as with slaves -- the bible says it is ok to beat a slave and most of them are dark skinned so this is another excuse. Savagely beat your slave and then go back and read your bible. Still, religion is waning so by the end of this century praying may not be in use.
The advent of low dispersion glass in photographic optics not only reduced spherochromatism but lowered the overall secondary spectrum. This was seen as the near elimination of color fringing seen in prints.
My comment here has no connection to what you wrote, just like your comment has no connection to what Ruth wrote.
I caught Ruth on Joy Reid and she was, as we would expect, very good. There was one little smirk of awareness I particularly enjoyed. I'm so glad you're getting to spread the word. I think it might well be a part of a groundswell that does make a difference--especially for the people upset with Biden for not being perfect and who claim not to vote for him. I was intrigued by young folks from NH annoyed with him over the Middle East. As I've said to a few friends with similar sentiments, it's Bibi's who's the problem not Biden.
Italy's current fascination with fascism reminds me of the US involvement in the pro-fascist movement in Italy many years ago. There was an Apertura movement there that was an "opening of the left", that was hated by US far right elites and especially the CIA. Our CIA Rome office funneled tons of cash to political groups opposing Apertura. These groups were pro-fascist. JFK had backed Apertura and democracy in Italy, so this put him in direct conflict with our pro-fascism elites. The degree that our CIA influence had on present day Italy and their fascist movement is not known. We can only speculate.
It is troubling when far right politicians make use of criminal thugs throughout the community. It never ends well unless there is a concerted effort by a progressive government to re-establish law and order through democratic means instead of Duterte-type heavy handed tactics. I might be off topic but I always thought that the slow, methodical prosecution of DJT might actually be better for American democracy since it resists the instinct to overreact while demonstrating the proper application of law and justice in a democracy.
This article brought back my revulsion to an incident that happened shortly before or after DJT's inauguration, right here in my hometown at a restaurant my family and I had patronized for my parent's birthdays and anniversaries. A large group of DJT followers, ( Roger Stone's Group?) American blackshirts, gathered en masse to loudly hail DJT with the fascist refrain and salute. I will never never return to that restaurant. I can never never erase that image from my memory. That was 2016.
Thankyou for publishing this update about Italy, Prof. Ben-Ghiat. I agree with with Patricia. " It's not surprising since fascism has never gone away." To me it is very disturbing and saddens me, More so than what is happening in the USA and India. We live in growing precarious times.
JEWS are Christ Killers, so no one cares. (Interestingly enough first, century Jews under the occupation of Rome could not exercise capital punishment—and even if they were feeling feisty, they most certainly would never have attempted such a flaunting of Rome while the Procurator, Pilate, was in town for the Passover; the occupiers, the Romans, therefore, crucified the Jewish Jesus of Nazareth for political reasons. The ‘New’ Testament notes that Pilate did affix the phrase, “Here is the king of the Jews,” to the crucifix so that anyone with such aspirations would think 40 or 50 times.) Therefore, everyone has to know that jc probably never lived. (That would come as news to first-century historian Josephus, “Antiquities of the Jews”—Josephus as a source can be debated, but that’s what historians do, research, interpret, and argue) At most, he was just another religious nut who lived two thousand years ago when these types were rampant. (True enough, the era was characterized by Messiahs, Prophets, and Bandits. Check out Richard A. Horsley’s work. Acts 5:38-39 has an interesting commentary on the time by Gamaliel, the Jewish Paul’s teacher, "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” and he looked like a man of his time: very short, dark with Semitic features. (Unquestionably, no Nordic Jesus in a MAGA cap ever existed!) No white person prays to this kind of fellow. (I’m a shade of white, not so much in the summer, and Italian to boot, and I pray to the Jewish, dark-skinned, short, amazing hiker from Nazareth)
Great summary and update on what's happening in Italy. It's not surprising since fascism has never gone away.
What an eye-opening essay. I'd always assumed that Italy took similar steps as Germany did post-WWII. Seeing the mosaic and the painting in such prominent places surprised me. From the formation of modern Italy, Italian politics has been "interesting".
Thank you for this lesson in the history of facism in Italy. The art work is especially interesting. What do tourists think about the art and architecture when they don't understand the significance? If they are Americans and you tell them, they'll know right away what's been going on there!
It certainly convinces me not to visit Italy - at least not in this lifetime! The differences between Germany and Italy and how they handle their pasts are astounding. I couldn’t help also recalling the thuggery of Cosa Nostra also. Though there has been movement in Sicily to tamp down thei activity.
Thank you for keeping it real and in front of the world, professor.
Ruth, can you comment on the Austrian experience dealing with fascism? My sister recently visited Vienna and Berlin and was struck by the difference between the two. I got the impression that Austria is closer to Italy in this regard.
Giving latitude to fascists, racists, and misogynists is a manifestation of tolerance and good will as many of us have been taught by our religious beliefs, our schools, and our families. As such we are slow to realize inherent authoritarianism and sociopathy of "brotherhoods;" those that are determined to use our good graces for their advantage. It's a hard call to make. We don't want to set aside our ideals to curtail what may turn out to be the "hand that bites us."
Hope, in response to the "We don't want to set aside our ideals..." comment, I think about the balance between the ethic of "rights," and the ethic of "responsibility." It seems to me that freedom of speech must be balanced with responsibility to the larger society. When the speech of one person or group threatens to activate widespread anxiety or violence, then under the ethic of responsibility it would be negligent and dangerous to stand idly by. It's a judgment call, for sure...but not a loss of ideals. Just a focus on the greater good.
Nicely said, Madeline. Thank you. The other evening, a resident in our apartment building used the "N" word. When I pointed out the harm of that term, she responded, "I can say whatever I want." Unlike my usual silence I said, "No you can't. Not if it is something harmful to others."
I like that, Hope...good for you! I'm going to remember that.
Thank you for putting into words, the dilemma of rights: right to free speech with right to personal safety. I agree that with freedom, we must use that freedom responsibly; similar to driving a car, we must obey rules to operate that freedom to drive safely.
It becomes a freedom of speech issue as well. Those lacking in virtues have historically used the freedoms of their society to push their vice-ridden mentality on others. These freedoms have destroyed democracies in the past, because they were abused. This is why I'm so against allowing fascist speech to be heard here. tRump's 2015 campaign was all about fascist indoctrination, but it was allowed. Now we're seeing the consequences. It has created a collective delusion on the far right.
Is it possible to prove in court that the use of "hate speech" intends to harm a group of individuals? How do we prove "hate speech" intends to destroy democracy? Oof! I am arguing with myself because I agree with your statement that those "lacking in virtues" have abused them to the destruction of democratic society. I see autocratic strongmen here trying to destroy these virtues in education, public institutions, houses of worship, citizens' voting rights and the media. I agree with you, we must put a stop on "fascist indoctrination"
I don't believe that we need to use the court system in this matter. I believe that fascist propaganda needs to be addressed by Congress, and pass a law that prevents it. We know from history how effective propaganda is, especially the paranoia-based propaganda of fascism. We've seen the results of letting fascist speech run wild.
Hope, I am troubled by the use of the word "ideal". I would guess you mean "our morals" An ideal can be the epitome or an outcome that is harmful to innocent people. I prefer the word "ethics" what as seen as the greater good for society. For example Hitler's ideals for a white, aryan world, or Jim Crow post civil war America's white, christian-only worldview are immoral but still ideals.
I accept your reasoning. Thank you. It's a struggle to get "this" right!
Whoa! Yet more troubling history being reinvigorated, it made me think of the confederate statues we have been struggling to move here in the US. On a more hopeful note, maybe, I thought I saw a counter protest in Italy with thousands of (d)emocracy supporters that gathered in opposition to the rise in the far rights use of the fascist salute. I forwarded it to you on Xchan and if I misinterpreted what was actually going on I do apologize. I read it as an example of the growing protest movements we have talked about here on the Lucidania =]
Oops, it was a protest against the far right in Germany =] And I think you saw and commented on it on Xchan. I figured it had already come to your attention but i kinda wanted to show you that I'm paying attention =] 🌊🏄♂️🌅🪷😊
To me, these fascist types like to prey on people's fears and prejudices while enriching themselves and family/friends. Politicians per se? Maybe, but these fascist types make it seem obvious to me. With factories shipped out to China, and tech/AI taking over many jobs....... this is going to get worse!
I worry a lot about our use of language. When we refer to a "type", it brings to mind a "group". When we speak this way, I believe it paints an individual with a "broad brush", that can be used by a "StrongMan" to harm us. I believe we all must see and respond to every person we are with in any moment as an individual.
Jews didn't kill christ but white christians can use this as their excuse to get rid of them. Just as with slaves -- the bible says it is ok to beat a slave and most of them are dark skinned so this is another excuse. Savagely beat your slave and then go back and read your bible. Still, religion is waning so by the end of this century praying may not be in use.
The advent of low dispersion glass in photographic optics not only reduced spherochromatism but lowered the overall secondary spectrum. This was seen as the near elimination of color fringing seen in prints.
My comment here has no connection to what you wrote, just like your comment has no connection to what Ruth wrote.
I caught Ruth on Joy Reid and she was, as we would expect, very good. There was one little smirk of awareness I particularly enjoyed. I'm so glad you're getting to spread the word. I think it might well be a part of a groundswell that does make a difference--especially for the people upset with Biden for not being perfect and who claim not to vote for him. I was intrigued by young folks from NH annoyed with him over the Middle East. As I've said to a few friends with similar sentiments, it's Bibi's who's the problem not Biden.
Fascist salute? Most definitely a crime against decency and common sense.
It's generally a sign that those giving the salute have accepted a sociopathic/psychopathic leader as normal and have rejected reality.
Italy's current fascination with fascism reminds me of the US involvement in the pro-fascist movement in Italy many years ago. There was an Apertura movement there that was an "opening of the left", that was hated by US far right elites and especially the CIA. Our CIA Rome office funneled tons of cash to political groups opposing Apertura. These groups were pro-fascist. JFK had backed Apertura and democracy in Italy, so this put him in direct conflict with our pro-fascism elites. The degree that our CIA influence had on present day Italy and their fascist movement is not known. We can only speculate.
It is troubling when far right politicians make use of criminal thugs throughout the community. It never ends well unless there is a concerted effort by a progressive government to re-establish law and order through democratic means instead of Duterte-type heavy handed tactics. I might be off topic but I always thought that the slow, methodical prosecution of DJT might actually be better for American democracy since it resists the instinct to overreact while demonstrating the proper application of law and justice in a democracy.
This article brought back my revulsion to an incident that happened shortly before or after DJT's inauguration, right here in my hometown at a restaurant my family and I had patronized for my parent's birthdays and anniversaries. A large group of DJT followers, ( Roger Stone's Group?) American blackshirts, gathered en masse to loudly hail DJT with the fascist refrain and salute. I will never never return to that restaurant. I can never never erase that image from my memory. That was 2016.
Wow! Shocking! It shows how easily people get sucked into the maelstrom of fascist thought.
Thankyou for publishing this update about Italy, Prof. Ben-Ghiat. I agree with with Patricia. " It's not surprising since fascism has never gone away." To me it is very disturbing and saddens me, More so than what is happening in the USA and India. We live in growing precarious times.