The astonishing and bewildering success of the proto-fascist elements in our society threatens our continued existence as a (relatively) civilized nation, and undermines our fundamental sense of personal and political reality. It is therefore essential that we not allow their rhetoric and political strategy to distract us from the fundamental principles of political reality.
Ms. Butler observes that White Evangelicals use religion and morality as instruments to gain political power. This should take us back to first principles: the United States is by design not a theocracy, but a secular democracy. Hence the constitutional separation of church and state. This principle means that individuals, politicians, and members of political parties are entitled to say that their religious beliefs inform their political beliefs and actions. But they are not entitled to say that their religious beliefs deserve to be directly implemented into laws and government policy.
The abortion controversy makes a good example of this distinction. Antiabortion activists are entitled to say their activities and goals are informed by their religious beliefs. They are not entitled to say that their religious beliefs, or the dogmas of their church, deserve to be enacted, because they hold them, into law and government policy.
The proto-fascist movement in its religious dimension wishes to erase this distinction, which is one of the most fundamental and essential principles of American democracy. It wants to turn America into a theocracy. (Trump’s kakistocratic government was full of true believers in this goal.). This goal of the proto-fascists creates an asymmetrical political conflict, reflecting the larger asymmetrical conflict that occurs whenever the forces of democracy confront fascists. The former are committed to observing democratic principles, while the latter exploit democratic principles for the purpose of destroying democracy. Thus democratic forces respect the right of political opponents to engage in political activity informed by their religious beliefs, and to articulate that fact in their rhetoric. Proto-fascists exploit this asymmetry to employ rhetoric and engage in practices that are neither religious nor democratic, but in reality attack and subvert both. The forces of democracy do not want to attack anyone’s religious beliefs, and therefore remain silent in the face of proto-fascist rhetoric and practices masked in religious rhetoric. Democratic forces therefore engage in the self-defeating practice of refusing to declare that not everything that calls itself religion is religious.
But the IRS does not automatically grant a religious exemption to taxation to anyone who claims one. It investigates and then makes a judgment as to whether that party is in fact religious. In times of war, the state does not automatically grant conscientious objector status to anyone who claims a religious objection to participating in battle. Americans do not recognize a religious right of “religious” zealots to bomb airplanes and knock down buildings. Nor does the fact that an unregenerate sinner calls himself a Christian make him one. It makes him a hypocritical unregenerate sinner, who uses religion as a cloak for his wickedness. It is necessary to recognize a distinction between true religion and false religion, and not to be afraid of calling false religion what it is.
This is neither a matter of judging among religions, nor of criticizing anyone’s religious beliefs. First, the essence of contemporary American proto-fascism—of Trumpism—is that it seduces people into being their worst selves. There is no conceivable definition of any kind of religion under which a movement that does this can be considered religious. Its “religion” is a cloak for its fascist politics. This imposture should be relentlessly denounced. What should be denounced is not the hypocrisy of claiming to be religious while supporting an unregenerate sinner—we are all sinners—but the fact that nothing worthy of being called a religion could possibly support the political rhetoric or government policies of Trumpism. All rationalizations of Trumpism are paranoid fantasies, which is to say, projected fascist aggression. It can and should be explicitly said that religious rhetoric is not self-justifying, and that American and world history show again and again that religion is the favorite cloak of evil. The devil quotes scripture, and in contemporary America his religion is fascism.
Second, legitimacy should not be bestowed on proto-fascist religious rhetoric by addressing it as if it is to be taken seriously. Again, the abortion controversy provides a good example. Abortion-rights activists do not engage in religious debates with people whose religious beliefs prohibit abortion. They point out that those beliefs are theological (and are in fact not shared by various other religions, especially those with no official theology or dogma). Abortion rights activists adhere to secular rhetoric, because we live in a secular democracy. They point out that much anti-abortion activity is inspired by the secular desire to retain a traditional social structure that subordinates women, but laws and government policy in a democracy should instead respect the rights of the individual.
Chris Hedges’ “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” examines this phenomenon, which he calls Christian fascism.
Also, for Evangelicals, ‘Religious Liberty’ is their right to stifle other religions and go after those of whom the disapprove. Eg. won’t make a wedding cake for a gay couple etc.
An excellent interview! Anthea’s book was excellent! Another type of dominionist non-evangelical group would be the Catholic group Opus Dei. Barr is a member, former FBI Director Freeh and Robert Hansen of the FBI who spied for the Russians are or were members. Evangelicals haven’t cornered this market.
More and more, evangelicals show their hand over time. "Freedom of Religion" actually pretty much adds up to "Freedom to Be a Christian," with an occasional nod to Judaism.
In my 55 years on this planet, I'm not sure that there's been a scarier time to be a "none." They say that movements make the most noise as they're on their way out; I can only hope that it's the case with white nationalist evangelicals.
Thank you for this interview. Reading it led me to order Anthea Butler's book and to print the article "Jesus Plus Nothing" by Jeff Sharlet to read later. I feel like I have been warning about the link between the evangelicals and the far-right and their beliefs in white supremacy, racism, misogyny and bigotry for years. I look forward to learning more and figuring out how to help hold these zealots and wannabe authoritarians at bay.
Another good interview Ruth, thank you and Anthea. What I find as a person of faith myself is the lines between church and state that some of these cast of characters so eagerly try to mold together are very disturbing to say the least. This is not what our country stands for and never should be. I actually find them to have very little faith if any at all. I also enjoy and believe in a shared faith journey and believe I am enriched by others faith or even none at all. I myself also would never discriminate or put one against another to earn anything political or other agendas. I believe it is what actually makes this country stronger, more inclusive and more tolerant of each other. If your faith does not do this I question your actual faith or beliefs. The good teachings of all have a very common thread woven between them. These people do not speak for me or my faith or my knowing as a follower of Jesus so there is no way I want them telling me what or how to believe, let alone tell another. As history has proven the melding of church and state never has had any lasting or good consequences. In fact more horrendous acts and wars have been fought or done in the name of supposed religion than any other. The leap also in removing what I as a faithful person believes to what another does is not far. If they do it to me they could do it to you also or visa versa. When some behave as if their religion is the national mandate superficial superiority always follows and turns it into a mere power grab for false reasons. That is not faith of any kind at least not mine.
I like what she said about Trump taking D list evangelicals and making them into A -listers like Paula White. I think that Trump has done that not just with evangelicals but more broadly with many of the people he has brought into his circle and appointed to positions of power.
Because of the nepotism and need for loyalty he brought in people from the fringes. D- listers with little or no background, experience or qualifications to serve in his government. Trump's administration was a kakistocracy of corrupt men and women from start to finish. During the pandemic for example, he surrounded himself with fringe or quack doctors (Scott Atlas) who were pushing the malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid and the strategy of herd immunity to cure the pandemic, which would have killed over 2 to 3 million Americans.
Often, Trump's appointments were not only D listers but just plain corrupt. Its a long list but remember Scott Pruit, the former head of the EPA? Or take Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. These are two people who had absolutely no business being in government. Ivanka, who was selling handbags on the internet, was now billed as a world leader accompanying her father to the European G8 summit. And Jared made a huge arm deal with the Saudis and in return they paid off his billion dollar debt on his 666 property.
Trump's administration was not only a bonfire of D-listers from the fringes, thieves and kleptocrats but an A- list of corruption and incompetence the likes of which we have never seen in American history.
The astonishing and bewildering success of the proto-fascist elements in our society threatens our continued existence as a (relatively) civilized nation, and undermines our fundamental sense of personal and political reality. It is therefore essential that we not allow their rhetoric and political strategy to distract us from the fundamental principles of political reality.
Ms. Butler observes that White Evangelicals use religion and morality as instruments to gain political power. This should take us back to first principles: the United States is by design not a theocracy, but a secular democracy. Hence the constitutional separation of church and state. This principle means that individuals, politicians, and members of political parties are entitled to say that their religious beliefs inform their political beliefs and actions. But they are not entitled to say that their religious beliefs deserve to be directly implemented into laws and government policy.
The abortion controversy makes a good example of this distinction. Antiabortion activists are entitled to say their activities and goals are informed by their religious beliefs. They are not entitled to say that their religious beliefs, or the dogmas of their church, deserve to be enacted, because they hold them, into law and government policy.
The proto-fascist movement in its religious dimension wishes to erase this distinction, which is one of the most fundamental and essential principles of American democracy. It wants to turn America into a theocracy. (Trump’s kakistocratic government was full of true believers in this goal.). This goal of the proto-fascists creates an asymmetrical political conflict, reflecting the larger asymmetrical conflict that occurs whenever the forces of democracy confront fascists. The former are committed to observing democratic principles, while the latter exploit democratic principles for the purpose of destroying democracy. Thus democratic forces respect the right of political opponents to engage in political activity informed by their religious beliefs, and to articulate that fact in their rhetoric. Proto-fascists exploit this asymmetry to employ rhetoric and engage in practices that are neither religious nor democratic, but in reality attack and subvert both. The forces of democracy do not want to attack anyone’s religious beliefs, and therefore remain silent in the face of proto-fascist rhetoric and practices masked in religious rhetoric. Democratic forces therefore engage in the self-defeating practice of refusing to declare that not everything that calls itself religion is religious.
But the IRS does not automatically grant a religious exemption to taxation to anyone who claims one. It investigates and then makes a judgment as to whether that party is in fact religious. In times of war, the state does not automatically grant conscientious objector status to anyone who claims a religious objection to participating in battle. Americans do not recognize a religious right of “religious” zealots to bomb airplanes and knock down buildings. Nor does the fact that an unregenerate sinner calls himself a Christian make him one. It makes him a hypocritical unregenerate sinner, who uses religion as a cloak for his wickedness. It is necessary to recognize a distinction between true religion and false religion, and not to be afraid of calling false religion what it is.
This is neither a matter of judging among religions, nor of criticizing anyone’s religious beliefs. First, the essence of contemporary American proto-fascism—of Trumpism—is that it seduces people into being their worst selves. There is no conceivable definition of any kind of religion under which a movement that does this can be considered religious. Its “religion” is a cloak for its fascist politics. This imposture should be relentlessly denounced. What should be denounced is not the hypocrisy of claiming to be religious while supporting an unregenerate sinner—we are all sinners—but the fact that nothing worthy of being called a religion could possibly support the political rhetoric or government policies of Trumpism. All rationalizations of Trumpism are paranoid fantasies, which is to say, projected fascist aggression. It can and should be explicitly said that religious rhetoric is not self-justifying, and that American and world history show again and again that religion is the favorite cloak of evil. The devil quotes scripture, and in contemporary America his religion is fascism.
Second, legitimacy should not be bestowed on proto-fascist religious rhetoric by addressing it as if it is to be taken seriously. Again, the abortion controversy provides a good example. Abortion-rights activists do not engage in religious debates with people whose religious beliefs prohibit abortion. They point out that those beliefs are theological (and are in fact not shared by various other religions, especially those with no official theology or dogma). Abortion rights activists adhere to secular rhetoric, because we live in a secular democracy. They point out that much anti-abortion activity is inspired by the secular desire to retain a traditional social structure that subordinates women, but laws and government policy in a democracy should instead respect the rights of the individual.
Chris Hedges’ “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” examines this phenomenon, which he calls Christian fascism.
Also, for Evangelicals, ‘Religious Liberty’ is their right to stifle other religions and go after those of whom the disapprove. Eg. won’t make a wedding cake for a gay couple etc.
An excellent interview! Anthea’s book was excellent! Another type of dominionist non-evangelical group would be the Catholic group Opus Dei. Barr is a member, former FBI Director Freeh and Robert Hansen of the FBI who spied for the Russians are or were members. Evangelicals haven’t cornered this market.
More and more, evangelicals show their hand over time. "Freedom of Religion" actually pretty much adds up to "Freedom to Be a Christian," with an occasional nod to Judaism.
In my 55 years on this planet, I'm not sure that there's been a scarier time to be a "none." They say that movements make the most noise as they're on their way out; I can only hope that it's the case with white nationalist evangelicals.
Thank you for this interview. Reading it led me to order Anthea Butler's book and to print the article "Jesus Plus Nothing" by Jeff Sharlet to read later. I feel like I have been warning about the link between the evangelicals and the far-right and their beliefs in white supremacy, racism, misogyny and bigotry for years. I look forward to learning more and figuring out how to help hold these zealots and wannabe authoritarians at bay.
Another good interview Ruth, thank you and Anthea. What I find as a person of faith myself is the lines between church and state that some of these cast of characters so eagerly try to mold together are very disturbing to say the least. This is not what our country stands for and never should be. I actually find them to have very little faith if any at all. I also enjoy and believe in a shared faith journey and believe I am enriched by others faith or even none at all. I myself also would never discriminate or put one against another to earn anything political or other agendas. I believe it is what actually makes this country stronger, more inclusive and more tolerant of each other. If your faith does not do this I question your actual faith or beliefs. The good teachings of all have a very common thread woven between them. These people do not speak for me or my faith or my knowing as a follower of Jesus so there is no way I want them telling me what or how to believe, let alone tell another. As history has proven the melding of church and state never has had any lasting or good consequences. In fact more horrendous acts and wars have been fought or done in the name of supposed religion than any other. The leap also in removing what I as a faithful person believes to what another does is not far. If they do it to me they could do it to you also or visa versa. When some behave as if their religion is the national mandate superficial superiority always follows and turns it into a mere power grab for false reasons. That is not faith of any kind at least not mine.
I like what she said about Trump taking D list evangelicals and making them into A -listers like Paula White. I think that Trump has done that not just with evangelicals but more broadly with many of the people he has brought into his circle and appointed to positions of power.
Because of the nepotism and need for loyalty he brought in people from the fringes. D- listers with little or no background, experience or qualifications to serve in his government. Trump's administration was a kakistocracy of corrupt men and women from start to finish. During the pandemic for example, he surrounded himself with fringe or quack doctors (Scott Atlas) who were pushing the malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid and the strategy of herd immunity to cure the pandemic, which would have killed over 2 to 3 million Americans.
Often, Trump's appointments were not only D listers but just plain corrupt. Its a long list but remember Scott Pruit, the former head of the EPA? Or take Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. These are two people who had absolutely no business being in government. Ivanka, who was selling handbags on the internet, was now billed as a world leader accompanying her father to the European G8 summit. And Jared made a huge arm deal with the Saudis and in return they paid off his billion dollar debt on his 666 property.
Trump's administration was not only a bonfire of D-listers from the fringes, thieves and kleptocrats but an A- list of corruption and incompetence the likes of which we have never seen in American history.
Great interview