Fascism has long been an attempted return to older, simpler times. Hitler was fascinated by the Middle Ages and hated modernity. tRump loves the rule of kings.
On Friday a Lucid member asked about where military personnel could get informed advice about whether an order is illegal. Yesterday, former military (and civilian) lawyer Glenn Kirschner posted an interview with Prof. Frank Rosenblatt about the National Institute of Military Justice's Orders Project, through which military personnel can receive informed advice from military legal experts. Here is the link to the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS--xrUSGyA
Laura Shapiro: With 28 years of uniformed reserve service as a Judge Advocate (USAFR, Judge Advocate, Lt Col, Retired), I was tasked to teach the Law of War and the Geneva and Hague Conventions.
To ask an airman, sailor, marine or soldier to decide which orders to obey is totally counter to military culture.
We all know from Nuremberg that, "I was following orders," is no defense to crimes against crimes against humanity.
Who on earth would want to follow orders to kill noncombatants?
But for a marine corps Gunnery Sergeant to disobey his skipper?
That goes against every grain in her/his teaching.
And if the order was so extreme as to tempt the Gunny to disobey the skipper, God help the NCO if he is wrong.
A court-martial; years of imprisonment; a dishonorable discharge.
If not, during war, worse.
Believe me, in military culture, the Gunny would be presumed W-R-O-N-G.
It is not a simple matter of, the order is repulsive to my humanity, I will disobey it.
If the command finds the Gunny insubordinate, he will be punished, and if it involves insubordination against an officer, the risk is dishonor to the service and imprisonment, or death in wartime.
"But I thought it would be against Hague . . ."
Well, says the command, the commanding officer has the wider view and is himself responsible to follow Hague, and YOU are responsible to obey HIM.
Says the Command, "And that is why you were insubordinate to an officer, especially in time of emergency, where the officer knew the Strategy for National Defense called for direct military intervention?"
A noncommissioned officer or enlisted, or even juniors among commissioned officer can, indeed must, disobey an order from superior command if that order would result in a war crime.
But the one disobedient of the order faces strict liability.
Try being the defense counsel for THAT military member, and see the tremendous pressures you and the client would undergo.
This is a dismal fact of life.
Yet there is a duty to disobey a command that violates Geneva/Hague.
You are right, exactly right in your posting.
I totally agree with you.
But this is to stand to the side of Bambi while the supersize Godzilla is about ready to stomp his five-story-high leg and smash Bambi.
The sailor, marine, airman must resist an order to commit a warcrime.
Every sailor, marine and airman hopes NEVER to be in this spot.
Each sailor, marine and airman knows that, if he decides to resist, he had better be right, because in this case, there is no room for error.
Now, having identified myself as a career, reserve judge advocate with the Air Force Reserves, and as a civilian, GS-15, lawyer with Navy Office of General Counsel, I am obliged to say, and it is my privilege and pleasure to say:
Armando speaks ONLY for himself. The Navy, the Air Force speak through their own public affairs and official channels for information and regulations. Armando does not speak for the Navy, or Air Force, or any of the Government.
As a matter of fact, at home, the beautiful woman I have loved for 54-years (52-married), my two daughters, and my granddaughter each know better than to listen to me. If I talk, they turn to each other and talk over me. If my granddaughter's two kitties are there, the kitties get up and leave when Armando talks. Only Misty, the pit-bull who LOVES children and who has a puppy dog personality, will not only listen to me, put come up so I can give her soft pets and affection. Misty is the only one who listens to me.
This is why the officers' oath differs from the enlisted oath. The officers are the actual fail-safe built into the system, or they're supposed to be. My fear is that they are not, or not enough of them.
I am not a military person and I just very quickly read Armand's comment below, but with those caveats, I found this by Roger Herbert to be a helpful way to conceptualize lawful v. unlawful orders;
copied and pasted : (with apologies if I did not choose wisely on what to copy)
" However, as any newly commissioned officer can attest, the bias toward obedience is not an absolute edict. Not all orders are created equal; they vary along three axes: prudence, legality, and morality. Naval Academy Youngsters (sophomores) learn that naval officers should challenge imprudent orders if time permits but then salute and enthusiastically carry them out if the boss insists. Officers should also challenge unlawful orders, time permitting. However, unlike orders that are merely imprudent, palpably illegal orders must be disobeyed, regardless of the circumstances or the seniority of the person issuing the order. Indeed, failure to disobey an unlawful order is itself unlawful. "
Meanwhile: Rough, very rough going for the officer facing that situation.
The situation is classic in "The Caine Mutiny" with Humphrey Bogart. Actually, Humphrey Bogart had to have enjoyed that role, because it was semi-humorous, with the paranoid skipper rolling the marbles in the palm of his sweaty hand when nervous.
It's just amazing how each seemingly subtle transgression, when taken as a whole, congeals the true "bigger" picture that is coming into focus thanks to your observations and discernment. The "firehose" of lies, scandals, and violations of law make it hard to see what's happening on a daily, even hourly basis. Thank you so much for helping us to understand the truth and being witness to this awful part of our history.
thanks for this. I'm sitting here thinking about how this country was "founded" and white supremacy has always governed this country! There are those of us who don't agree with this idea of white supremacy and throughout history we have rallied against it and my hope is that we continue to do so. We can sit back and watch. We must continue to rally!
Reading this essay while reading Rachel Maddow’s book Prequel just shows the generational white supremacist throughline in the US and how stubborn and pervasive it is. We really need to take down the roots of racism once and for all
Katie Galvin: I never thought the Coast Guard would adopt the ethic of Bull Connor.
In the Great Depression, Fr. Charles Coughlin's anti-Semitic rhetoric and his toleration of the terrors of Kristallnacht were broadcast weekly to 30-millions (when the populace of America counted circa 127-millions).
Hatred of others and fear of "Socialism" are deeply ingrained in American soil.
Three infographics on hate symbols, dog whistles and inciting violence to "respond to every evocation of the noose and the swastika with acts of anti-racist education"
Republicans declare swastika is/isn’t a hate symbol. Learn these other Nazi signs.
Thank you Ruth. This is tied to deeply racist, cruel and violent aspects of the American nativist psyche, all in the supposed name of free speech. While I must uphold the right to free speech, somehow society has to evolve or recognize the impact of these words and actions. The toxicity influences others, warping some towards violence and inuring others. We have to work at building compassion and solidarity.
Let the Dalai Lama, the Monkey King, and Zohran Mamdani's encounter with Trump ease you into the Holidays!
Good nourishment for your soul - and science-based instructions for dealing with challenging political conversations
After the US evacuation of Vietnam in '75, Ronald Reagan and the American Right gave the country permission to NOT LEASR from this national debacle. Part of that NOT LEARNING was to get uncork a big dose of the post post-WWI German Dolchstoßlegende "Stab-in-the-back-legend" and inject it directly into our veins.
And since the early 80's we've all been living with the "ARE WE GONNA WIN NEXT TIME" Rambo legend. That monster has escaped and morphed. The NOT LEARNING continues as the monster has exhumed our worst national instincts- Nazi fascism and it's American prototype racist Neo-Confederate-ism.
So well said. Thank you, Ruth. You are a national treasure.
Now do one on the maga big-tent rabid misogyny that runs through American fascism right from the beginning, starting with Abigail Adams’ letter to her husband imploring him to ’not forget the ladies’ in the new constitution — which he apparently and despicably ignored in spite of the fact that for years she was almost singlehandedly raising his children and running his farms and businesses while he was being such a BIG IMPORTANT MAN in Philadelphia — and continuing to the present, when over half the population is at serious risk of being murdered because they are pregnant or cruelly and idiotically being FORCED to bleed out in hospital parking lots, even though they could be helped/saved by standard 21st century abortion care.
Fascists always start by terrorizing the women because once they have suppressed more than half the population, the rest fall in line enthusiastically.
I lobbied in Florida for the ERA in the 1980s. It was clear then that a majority of men did not want to share any political power with women. Democracy has been waning since then.
I doubt a majority of Florida men were fascists in the 1980s. I think we must look elsewhere for the roots of misogyny.
The whole point is that anyone who is against equal rights for women — we are more than half the population, for fork’s sake!!, NOT a minority — is inherently a fascist because in US and elsewhere that’s their whole impetus, their entire reason for being is to keep anyone except white xian men (who ARE a minority) from having any power. So, yes — those FL men in the 1980s were indeed fascists, as were dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks ronnie reagan and all his sick despicable misogynist hangers-on.
And I did not say the ‘roots’ of misogyny are fascism. Quite the opposite: the roots of fascism lie in the rabid misogyny that is violently used as an excuse for the white xtian men to keep all the power and resources for themselves. The hatred fear of women are real; fascism is the facade used to organize and justify and weaponize that hatred and fear.
Please take a look at the links I provide in my comment above if this is still not clear to you.
FYI. Democracy does not have a life of its own — it does not wax or ‘wane’ by itself. If we want it we have to make sure it is alive and well and responsive. What has ‘waned’ is our commitment to keeping our democracy healthy.
I would be hard-pressed to say that any one thing that Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote is her best. I just read for a second time Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present. That book is luminously bright. I came to it knowing little of the meaning of authoritarianism and my eyes were opened. I direct you to the fifth chapter, Propaganda, and her analysis of the methods of propaganda employed by Mussolini, Hitler and Trump (who has sent 56,000 tweets). After reading the Lucid essay The Noose and the Swastika, however, I wonder if this isn't my favorite. The normalization of his threats of violence--including the desire to "hang" six veterans this last week as "Washington would do" -- is chilling. So much of his casual solicitation of violence, in words and symbols, has been normalized to a frightening degree. Didn't Hannah Arendt call this normalcy "the banality of evil"?
Why wasn’t this story of the Coast Guard and it’s change of policy wrt these hateful symbols more thoroughly reported? Where and with whom did this policy change originate? Did this get Kristi Norm’s OK? The CG is under Homeland Security, isn’t it? This didn’t arouse more curiosity?
Perhaps Trump will pardon the military, offer pardons for prior and future acts to do his bidding?
That's chilling!
De-evolution still in full swing.
Fascism has long been an attempted return to older, simpler times. Hitler was fascinated by the Middle Ages and hated modernity. tRump loves the rule of kings.
Pattern recognition saves lives
On Friday a Lucid member asked about where military personnel could get informed advice about whether an order is illegal. Yesterday, former military (and civilian) lawyer Glenn Kirschner posted an interview with Prof. Frank Rosenblatt about the National Institute of Military Justice's Orders Project, through which military personnel can receive informed advice from military legal experts. Here is the link to the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS--xrUSGyA
Laura Shapiro: With 28 years of uniformed reserve service as a Judge Advocate (USAFR, Judge Advocate, Lt Col, Retired), I was tasked to teach the Law of War and the Geneva and Hague Conventions.
To ask an airman, sailor, marine or soldier to decide which orders to obey is totally counter to military culture.
We all know from Nuremberg that, "I was following orders," is no defense to crimes against crimes against humanity.
Who on earth would want to follow orders to kill noncombatants?
But for a marine corps Gunnery Sergeant to disobey his skipper?
That goes against every grain in her/his teaching.
And if the order was so extreme as to tempt the Gunny to disobey the skipper, God help the NCO if he is wrong.
A court-martial; years of imprisonment; a dishonorable discharge.
If not, during war, worse.
Believe me, in military culture, the Gunny would be presumed W-R-O-N-G.
It is not a simple matter of, the order is repulsive to my humanity, I will disobey it.
If the command finds the Gunny insubordinate, he will be punished, and if it involves insubordination against an officer, the risk is dishonor to the service and imprisonment, or death in wartime.
"But I thought it would be against Hague . . ."
Well, says the command, the commanding officer has the wider view and is himself responsible to follow Hague, and YOU are responsible to obey HIM.
Just try to explain to the command,
"Well, I tried calling 1-800-Unlawful-Order or typed https://www.unlawfulorder.com . . ."
Says the Command, "And that is why you were insubordinate to an officer, especially in time of emergency, where the officer knew the Strategy for National Defense called for direct military intervention?"
A noncommissioned officer or enlisted, or even juniors among commissioned officer can, indeed must, disobey an order from superior command if that order would result in a war crime.
But the one disobedient of the order faces strict liability.
Try being the defense counsel for THAT military member, and see the tremendous pressures you and the client would undergo.
This is a dismal fact of life.
Yet there is a duty to disobey a command that violates Geneva/Hague.
You are right, exactly right in your posting.
I totally agree with you.
But this is to stand to the side of Bambi while the supersize Godzilla is about ready to stomp his five-story-high leg and smash Bambi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R-rbzcEM8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4oUuRBnEkE
The sailor, marine, airman must resist an order to commit a warcrime.
Every sailor, marine and airman hopes NEVER to be in this spot.
Each sailor, marine and airman knows that, if he decides to resist, he had better be right, because in this case, there is no room for error.
Now, having identified myself as a career, reserve judge advocate with the Air Force Reserves, and as a civilian, GS-15, lawyer with Navy Office of General Counsel, I am obliged to say, and it is my privilege and pleasure to say:
Armando speaks ONLY for himself. The Navy, the Air Force speak through their own public affairs and official channels for information and regulations. Armando does not speak for the Navy, or Air Force, or any of the Government.
As a matter of fact, at home, the beautiful woman I have loved for 54-years (52-married), my two daughters, and my granddaughter each know better than to listen to me. If I talk, they turn to each other and talk over me. If my granddaughter's two kitties are there, the kitties get up and leave when Armando talks. Only Misty, the pit-bull who LOVES children and who has a puppy dog personality, will not only listen to me, put come up so I can give her soft pets and affection. Misty is the only one who listens to me.
This is why the officers' oath differs from the enlisted oath. The officers are the actual fail-safe built into the system, or they're supposed to be. My fear is that they are not, or not enough of them.
Steve Florman: I am very sorry to second your fear, and say your fear is well-placed.
I totally agree with your perceptive comment.
We have seen the normalization
of violence and Nazism since Trump started. He recently said
he likes the smell of deportations
in the morning. Sounds like he is
conditioning us to accept building crematoriums next to his concentration camps.
I am not a military person and I just very quickly read Armand's comment below, but with those caveats, I found this by Roger Herbert to be a helpful way to conceptualize lawful v. unlawful orders;
copied and pasted : (with apologies if I did not choose wisely on what to copy)
" However, as any newly commissioned officer can attest, the bias toward obedience is not an absolute edict. Not all orders are created equal; they vary along three axes: prudence, legality, and morality. Naval Academy Youngsters (sophomores) learn that naval officers should challenge imprudent orders if time permits but then salute and enthusiastically carry them out if the boss insists. Officers should also challenge unlawful orders, time permitting. However, unlike orders that are merely imprudent, palpably illegal orders must be disobeyed, regardless of the circumstances or the seniority of the person issuing the order. Indeed, failure to disobey an unlawful order is itself unlawful. "
https://rogerherbert.substack.com/p/whats-wrong-with-a-good-old-fashioned-808?selection=8be94266-f76e-4c4f-89bf-e445e6b4a514#:~:text=illegal%20orders%20must%20be%20disobeyed
Mary: Totally agree.
Meanwhile: Rough, very rough going for the officer facing that situation.
The situation is classic in "The Caine Mutiny" with Humphrey Bogart. Actually, Humphrey Bogart had to have enjoyed that role, because it was semi-humorous, with the paranoid skipper rolling the marbles in the palm of his sweaty hand when nervous.
Thanks for sharing this link, Laura.
It's just amazing how each seemingly subtle transgression, when taken as a whole, congeals the true "bigger" picture that is coming into focus thanks to your observations and discernment. The "firehose" of lies, scandals, and violations of law make it hard to see what's happening on a daily, even hourly basis. Thank you so much for helping us to understand the truth and being witness to this awful part of our history.
‘Subtle’??? It’s been ‘in your face’ from the beginning. Small, maybe, but never subtle.
thanks for this. I'm sitting here thinking about how this country was "founded" and white supremacy has always governed this country! There are those of us who don't agree with this idea of white supremacy and throughout history we have rallied against it and my hope is that we continue to do so. We can sit back and watch. We must continue to rally!
Reading this essay while reading Rachel Maddow’s book Prequel just shows the generational white supremacist throughline in the US and how stubborn and pervasive it is. We really need to take down the roots of racism once and for all
Katie Galvin: I never thought the Coast Guard would adopt the ethic of Bull Connor.
In the Great Depression, Fr. Charles Coughlin's anti-Semitic rhetoric and his toleration of the terrors of Kristallnacht were broadcast weekly to 30-millions (when the populace of America counted circa 127-millions).
Hatred of others and fear of "Socialism" are deeply ingrained in American soil.
Thanks, we'll spelled out the historic connections of racism and oppression that is trump and his team.
Three infographics on hate symbols, dog whistles and inciting violence to "respond to every evocation of the noose and the swastika with acts of anti-racist education"
Republicans declare swastika is/isn’t a hate symbol. Learn these other Nazi signs.
https://thedemlabs.org/2025/11/20/republicans-ok-nazi-swastika/
Trump follows the Fascist Playbook to incite violence: Check this 3D Map
https://thedemlabs.org/2025/11/22/trump-incites-violence-fascist-playbook-3d-map/
Trump incites violence. Learn to recognize his dog whistles with this illustrated guide.
https://infogram.com/dog-whistling-an-illustrated-guide-1hzj4o3mrlmp34p
Thank you Ruth. This is tied to deeply racist, cruel and violent aspects of the American nativist psyche, all in the supposed name of free speech. While I must uphold the right to free speech, somehow society has to evolve or recognize the impact of these words and actions. The toxicity influences others, warping some towards violence and inuring others. We have to work at building compassion and solidarity.
Let the Dalai Lama, the Monkey King, and Zohran Mamdani's encounter with Trump ease you into the Holidays!
Good nourishment for your soul - and science-based instructions for dealing with challenging political conversations
https://sunmoonlight.substack.com/p/let-the-dalai-lama-the-monkey-king
The Executive Branch is a toxic mess
Compassion, clarity, and solidarity are the answers to Trumpian misleadership
https://sunmoonlight.substack.com/p/the-executive-branch-is-a-toxic-mess
Thank you professor for your post.
After the US evacuation of Vietnam in '75, Ronald Reagan and the American Right gave the country permission to NOT LEASR from this national debacle. Part of that NOT LEARNING was to get uncork a big dose of the post post-WWI German Dolchstoßlegende "Stab-in-the-back-legend" and inject it directly into our veins.
And since the early 80's we've all been living with the "ARE WE GONNA WIN NEXT TIME" Rambo legend. That monster has escaped and morphed. The NOT LEARNING continues as the monster has exhumed our worst national instincts- Nazi fascism and it's American prototype racist Neo-Confederate-ism.
This SHALL NOT stand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth
So well said. Thank you, Ruth. You are a national treasure.
Now do one on the maga big-tent rabid misogyny that runs through American fascism right from the beginning, starting with Abigail Adams’ letter to her husband imploring him to ’not forget the ladies’ in the new constitution — which he apparently and despicably ignored in spite of the fact that for years she was almost singlehandedly raising his children and running his farms and businesses while he was being such a BIG IMPORTANT MAN in Philadelphia — and continuing to the present, when over half the population is at serious risk of being murdered because they are pregnant or cruelly and idiotically being FORCED to bleed out in hospital parking lots, even though they could be helped/saved by standard 21st century abortion care.
Fascists always start by terrorizing the women because once they have suppressed more than half the population, the rest fall in line enthusiastically.
https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36075083/
https://academic.oup.com/book/742/chapter-abstract/135399942?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=true
https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2022/04/26/women-fascists-democracy-backslides-abortion-rights
I lobbied in Florida for the ERA in the 1980s. It was clear then that a majority of men did not want to share any political power with women. Democracy has been waning since then.
I doubt a majority of Florida men were fascists in the 1980s. I think we must look elsewhere for the roots of misogyny.
What is your definition of fascist??
The whole point is that anyone who is against equal rights for women — we are more than half the population, for fork’s sake!!, NOT a minority — is inherently a fascist because in US and elsewhere that’s their whole impetus, their entire reason for being is to keep anyone except white xian men (who ARE a minority) from having any power. So, yes — those FL men in the 1980s were indeed fascists, as were dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks ronnie reagan and all his sick despicable misogynist hangers-on.
And I did not say the ‘roots’ of misogyny are fascism. Quite the opposite: the roots of fascism lie in the rabid misogyny that is violently used as an excuse for the white xtian men to keep all the power and resources for themselves. The hatred fear of women are real; fascism is the facade used to organize and justify and weaponize that hatred and fear.
Please take a look at the links I provide in my comment above if this is still not clear to you.
FYI. Democracy does not have a life of its own — it does not wax or ‘wane’ by itself. If we want it we have to make sure it is alive and well and responsive. What has ‘waned’ is our commitment to keeping our democracy healthy.
Thank you Professor
Ben-Ghiat. Every post
you make is an
important educational
tool.
Hello everyone,
I would be hard-pressed to say that any one thing that Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote is her best. I just read for a second time Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present. That book is luminously bright. I came to it knowing little of the meaning of authoritarianism and my eyes were opened. I direct you to the fifth chapter, Propaganda, and her analysis of the methods of propaganda employed by Mussolini, Hitler and Trump (who has sent 56,000 tweets). After reading the Lucid essay The Noose and the Swastika, however, I wonder if this isn't my favorite. The normalization of his threats of violence--including the desire to "hang" six veterans this last week as "Washington would do" -- is chilling. So much of his casual solicitation of violence, in words and symbols, has been normalized to a frightening degree. Didn't Hannah Arendt call this normalcy "the banality of evil"?
Neither of these symbols can stand in a civil society. We need to call this out whenever it surfaces.
As always, your post is spot on and enlightening. Thank you Prof. Ben-Ghiat.
Why wasn’t this story of the Coast Guard and it’s change of policy wrt these hateful symbols more thoroughly reported? Where and with whom did this policy change originate? Did this get Kristi Norm’s OK? The CG is under Homeland Security, isn’t it? This didn’t arouse more curiosity?